the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Garrib
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Re: Eating meat vs doing the killing

Post by Garrib »

lyndon taylor wrote:How does one make the step from "I kill insects when I drive my car" to "I pay people to kill a cow so I can eat its flesh" Anyone that thinks the former justifies the latter is not applying logic IMHO.
Yes, but what about when you don't pay people to kill the cow, but someone offers you a dish with meat in it...or you are at a party with a lot of meat based food, which will go to waste unless consumed. Would letting the dead animal's flesh rot, rather than be consumed, be of any benefit to said creature?
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lyndon taylor
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Re: Eating meat vs doing the killing

Post by lyndon taylor »

If its going to go to waste I will eat meat, but another question is just how healthy is it to eat meat in the first place, I think you have every right to refuse it, eating meat just to make you host happy seems kind of spineless to me, its a good opportunity for you to "witness" a bit about vegetarianism, if that offends your host then they have the problem, not you IMHO
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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retrofuturist
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Re: Eating meat vs doing the killing

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Lyndon,
lyndon taylor wrote:you have every right to refuse it, eating meat just to make you host happy seems kind of spineless to me
So according to your logic, the Buddha was "kind of spineless"...?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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lyndon taylor
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Re: Eating meat vs doing the killing

Post by lyndon taylor »

i don't think there's any solid evidence that the Buddha ever ate meat, but a vegetarian is a vegetarian, they don't have to be doing it the exact same way the buddha did, even if we knew what way that was. Maybe they just don't like being involved in the killing of animals for food, I stand by my statement. One of the main reasons for being a vegetarian is for your health, how does it help your health to eat meat every time it is offered to you. You're wrong if you think everyone has to follow the Buddha's instructions for accepting food, all throughout the history of Buddhism there have been monks and laypeople that refused to eat meat, its a personal decision, and that should be respected by hosts and family IMHO We had a vegetarian monk at our Cambodian Therevade temple. He just ate only the vegetarian dishes brought by the lay people.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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retrofuturist
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Re: Eating meat vs doing the killing

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
lyndon taylor wrote:You're wrong if you think everyone has to follow the Buddha's instructions for accepting food....
No, I don't think that. I just wanted to understand the logical implications of your accusation that "eating meat just to make you host happy seems kind of spineless".

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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robertk
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Re: Eating meat vs doing the killing

Post by robertk »

Garrib wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:How does one make the step from "I kill insects when I drive my car" to "I pay people to kill a cow so I can eat its flesh" Anyone that thinks the former justifies the latter is not applying logic IMHO.
Yes, but what about when you don't pay people to kill the cow, but someone offers you a dish with meat in it...or you are at a party with a lot of meat based food, which will go to waste unless consumed. Would letting the dead animal's flesh rot, rather than be consumed, be of any benefit to said creature?
as Bhikkhu Pesala wrote : If you don't order it, he will sell it to someone else. If he cannot sell it, he will give it to a local homeless shelter, or just chuck it in the bin for foxes to eat, or whatever. He will not resuscitate it and send it back to the turkey farm for next year.

Of course, if you go to the Turkey farm, and order a particular bird to be slaughtered for you, then you will make bad kamma, but if you cancel your order, the Turkey will still be slaughtered. Turkey farmers do not raise Turkeys as cute family pets.
Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

At least in American culture, there's a perception that "real men" eat meat. Animal products, however, are one of the main causes of male impotence:
Conditions that affect the heart and its ability to pump blood well can cause impotence. Without enough blood flow to the penis, a person can’t achieve an erection.

Atherosclerosis, a condition that causes the blood vessels to become clogged, can cause impotence. High cholesterol and high blood pressure (hypertension) are also associated with increased risks for impotence.
http://www.healthline.com/health/erecti ... conditions
The Massachusetts Male Aging Study found a direct connection between diet and ED. Men in the study who ate plenty of fruits, vegetables, and whole grains, and avoided red meat and processed grains, were less likely to experience ED.
http://www.healthline.com/health/erecti ... -and-diet2
The only source of dietary cholesterol is animal products, and atherosclerosis is caused by fat in our blood vessels.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah »

The only source of dietary strychnine is plant products and it can cause death.
chownah
binocular
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Re: Eating meat vs doing the killing

Post by binocular »

ieee23 wrote:
binocular wrote:The two cases are not the same.
Consuming intoxicants is avoidable.
So is buying meat or killing animals on your own.
Of course.
There is an intention to ignore harm and killing to satisfy a desire for a sense pleasure.
Absolutely.
The matter is different for monks, given that they eat the food they receive in alms, so they have little choice over what they get offered to eat.
Given my experiences in this life so far , I don't think I would want to know what the kamma is of a habit of intentionally ignoring consequences for the sake of an indulgence. I don't think it is anything anyone would want.
I am usually among the first in these discussions to point out that one cannot engage in an activity that is in some way problematic without this engagement sooner or later becoming problematic as well.

It's true that the animals whose meat can be bought in the grocery store are already dead and mostly dismembered and there is no way to bring them back to life. But by buying their meat one supports the meat industry which functions by the principle of supply and demand. If there is no demand, the supply will eventually diminish as well.
But some people seem to believe that it is possible to participate in an economic system and be ignorant of how it works; or, moreover, that we should ignore how it works. This seems like the Buddhist version of pharisaism.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

I don't judge people for eating meat, but I will say this: If you find dog meat to be morally repugnant, but you love eating cows, pigs, and chickens, then you are a hypocrite.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

chownah wrote:The only source of dietary strychnine is plant products and it can cause death.
chownah
Is it the cause of several of the most common diseases in the United States? Most sane people won't eat strychnine for dinner. They instead poison themselves more slowly with animal products. Your tendency to say the opposite of everything I say is childish.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah »

The only source of dietary pesticide residue is human products. It can cause many kinds of cancer leading to a long and painful death.
childish chownah
Last edited by chownah on Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Disciple
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Disciple »

Santi253 wrote:​There was a widely watched vegan Youtuber who recently quit veganism and now instead makes videos of himself binge eating on pizza and burgers and other junk food. He's been gaining substantial weight because of it. I want to avoid a similar fate. I am going vegetarian instead of vegan, because I know I am more likely to follow such a diet.
Channel name?
Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

Disciple wrote:
Santi253 wrote:​There was a widely watched vegan Youtuber who recently quit veganism and now instead makes videos of himself binge eating on pizza and burgers and other junk food. He's been gaining substantial weight because of it. I want to avoid a similar fate. I am going vegetarian instead of vegan, because I know I am more likely to follow such a diet.
Channel name?
Nikocado Avocado.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

http://www.matthewsatori.tumblr.com
Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

chownah wrote:The only source of dietary pesticide residue is human products. It can cause many kinds of cancer leading to a long and painful death.
childish chownah
A. That doesn't apply to organic fruits and vegetables.
B. The animal foods you eat are proven to have pesticides and other toxins, due to the animals being exposed to them.
C. Animal products cause far more diet-related illnesses in the United States than fruits and vegetables.

Your insistence on saying the opposite of everything I say, just because you can, is childish.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

http://www.matthewsatori.tumblr.com
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