the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
LXNDR
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by LXNDR » Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:10 pm

mahat wrote:all the great civilizations were built by nonVegetarians
not sure diet has anything to do with sophistication of a civilization, it there's causality between them, i believe it's rather reversed

either way the Buddha didn't teach how to build great civilization, but stress and its cessation

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by mahat » Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:50 pm

LXNDR wrote:
mahat wrote:all the great civilizations were built by nonVegetarians
not sure diet has anything to do with sophistication of a civilization, it there's causality between them, i believe it's rather reversed

either way the Buddha didn't teach how to build great civilization, but stress and its cessation
Yes, he did. The Dhamma creates civilization and promotes civilization so mankind can advance. In one of the Suttas it clearly states that it is a blessing to be born in a civilized country to practice the Dhamma.

That is why we have the worldly Noble Eightfold Path for householders, or Lokatiya and Lokuttara or otherworldly Noble Eightfold Path for Monks and Nuns.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by LXNDR » Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:26 pm

mahat wrote:
LXNDR wrote:
mahat wrote:all the great civilizations were built by nonVegetarians
not sure diet has anything to do with sophistication of a civilization, it there's causality between them, i believe it's rather reversed

either way the Buddha didn't teach how to build great civilization, but stress and its cessation
Yes, he did. The Dhamma creates civilization and promotes civilization so mankind can advance. In one of the Suttas it clearly states that it is a blessing to be born in a civilized country to practice the Dhamma.

That is why we have the worldly Noble Eightfold Path for householders, or Lokatiya and Lokuttara or otherworldly Noble Eightfold Path for Monks and Nuns.
[b]Anuradha sutta (SN 22.86)[/b] wrote:"Very good, Anuradha. Very good. Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress."

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seeker242
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by seeker242 » Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:42 pm

mahat wrote:Again, there are those who follow the cult of vegetarianism/veganism and there are those who follow Buddhism. Lord Buddha clearly saw that our bodies would not thrive on a plant based diet since our digestive system is poor we needed to allow vegetarian animals to digest the food and started raising animals for food---and true to his word all the great civilizations were built by nonVegetarians and nonVegetarians such as the Japanese and Swiss are the longest living people on earth:
Our lord and true refuge would never, under any circumstances, approve of what goes on at a factory farm. If you want to know about people who live the longest, National Geographic "Blue Zones" studies identify the pockets of people around the world who live the longest. They found nine things in common for the longest living people on the planet. One of them is their diet, which is described as "mostly plant origin". I'm sorry friend but you have been given bad information.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by mahat » Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:08 pm

seeker242 wrote:
mahat wrote:Again, there are those who follow the cult of vegetarianism/veganism and there are those who follow Buddhism. Lord Buddha clearly saw that our bodies would not thrive on a plant based diet since our digestive system is poor we needed to allow vegetarian animals to digest the food and started raising animals for food---and true to his word all the great civilizations were built by nonVegetarians and nonVegetarians such as the Japanese and Swiss are the longest living people on earth:
Our lord and true refuge would never, under any circumstances, approve of what goes on at a factory farm. If you want to know about people who live the longest, National Geographic "Blue Zones" studies identify the pockets of people around the world who live the longest. They found nine things in common for the longest living people on the planet. One of them is their diet, which is described as "mostly plant origin". I'm sorry friend but you have been given bad information.
This is incorrect. "Mostly" plant based is not plant based and the longest lived people in civilization are nonVegetarians. They are tough enough to create civilizations which allow humans to progress.

You can go live in the jungle where there is no stress, I am sure there are ascetics who live even longer"feeding on priti like the Abhassara Devas", but all of us are not there yet. There are enough humans suffering -- when humans suffer, animals suffer for the most part, laws are there against abusing animals and those should be enforced if there are any companies mistreating animals.

There are farmers killing millions of animals farming-- has that stopped you from eating your vegetables and grains? Abuse of plants made plants gain self defense mechanism where we can no longer fullY digest plant matter. Lord Buddha describes this in The Aganna Sutta. Our lust and greed are the problem, until then our body requires meat in it's current state and Buddhism is about "seeing things as they are"

A responsible and real Buddhist ensures the general population eats a BALANCED diet and eats mindfully -- including fish and meat and not live on vitamins--specially children. I will NEVER make children feel guilty about eating fish or meat! Shame on any Buddhist who does!

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by mahat » Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:12 pm

LXNDR wrote:
[b]Anuradha sutta (SN 22.86)[/b] wrote:"Very good, Anuradha. Very good. Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress."
Are you saying civilization does not come under stress? Buddhism is about saving civilization by saving mankind from stress and increasing his/her clarity of vision to make more Dhamma based decisions.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by DNS » Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:24 pm

mahat wrote: This is incorrect. "Mostly" plant based is not plant based and the longest lived people in civilization are nonVegetarians. They are tough enough to create civilizations which allow humans to progress.
You are incorrect. There have been numerous super-centenarians (those who have lived over 110 and where this has been verified) who have been vegetarian and non-vegetarian, which just goes to show that a human can eat a healthy diet on either vegetarian or non-vegetarian. Since there are options besides meat, some have chosen a diet which involves less killing. All diets have killing and collateral damage (insects, small animals) but some diets involve less killing than others.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by LXNDR » Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:20 am

mahat wrote:
LXNDR wrote:
[b]Anuradha sutta (SN 22.86)[/b] wrote:"Very good, Anuradha. Very good. Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress."
Are you saying civilization does not come under stress? Buddhism is about saving civilization by saving mankind from stress and increasing his/her clarity of vision to make more Dhamma based decisions.
you cannot save civilization, it only happens in Hollywood movies, as soon as everybody is in Nibbana there's no civilization any longer, so you either save civilization or advance towards nibbana

as an Orthodox Christianity saint Seraphim of Sarov said "Attain the Holy Spirit and thousands will find salvation around you"
Simsapa sutta (56.31) wrote:
"And what have I taught? 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress': This is what I have taught. And why have I taught these things? Because they are connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. This is why I have taught them.

"Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'"
Potthapada sutta (DN 9) wrote:
"But why hasn't the Blessed One expounded these things?"

"Because they are not conducive to the goal, are not conducive to the Dhamma, are not basic to the holy life. They don't lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That's why I haven't expounded them."

"And what has the Blessed One expounded?"

"I have expounded that, 'This is stress'... 'This is the origination of stress'... 'This is the cessation of stress'... 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'


"And why has the Blessed One expounded these things?"

"Because they are conducive to the goal, conducive to the Dhamma, and basic to the holy life. They lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That's why I have expounded them."
Last edited by LXNDR on Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:31 am

mahat wrote:Again, there are those who follow the cult of vegetarianism/veganism and there are those who follow Buddhism.
I'd be interested to hear your views on the relevant Buddhist teachings, eg the 3-fold rule, developing Right Intention, first precept, Right Livelihood, etc.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Mkoll » Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:37 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
mahat wrote:Again, there are those who follow the cult of vegetarianism/veganism and there are those who follow Buddhism.
I'd be interested to hear your views on the relevant Buddhist teachings, eg the 3-fold rule, developing Right Intention, first precept, Right Livelihood, etc.
He's already modified right livelihood here. But those are good points as well,
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:47 am

Mkoll wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
mahat wrote:Again, there are those who follow the cult of vegetarianism/veganism and there are those who follow Buddhism.
I'd be interested to hear your views on the relevant Buddhist teachings, eg the 3-fold rule, developing Right Intention, first precept, Right Livelihood, etc.
He's already modified right livelihood here. But those are good points as well,
People sometimes argue that meat-eating is ethically OK in Buddhism because it isn't mentioned specifically in the precepts and path factors, which is a fair point. But I'd still feel like a hypocrite buying meat because I'd be expecting somebody else to break the 1st precept, do wrong livelihood, etc.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by LXNDR » Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:02 am

Spiny Norman wrote: People sometimes argue that meat-eating is ethically OK in Buddhism because it isn't mentioned specifically in the precepts and path factors, which is a fair point. But I'd still feel like a hypocrite buying meat because I'd be expecting somebody else to break the 1st precept, do wrong livelihood, etc.
that is personal or cultural then and probably could be defined as 'wrong view'

it's the same with me BTW

the Buddha enumerated activities which surely lead to hell, and meat eating isn't one of them

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:48 am

LXNDR wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote: People sometimes argue that meat-eating is ethically OK in Buddhism because it isn't mentioned specifically in the precepts and path factors, which is a fair point. But I'd still feel like a hypocrite buying meat because I'd be expecting somebody else to break the 1st precept, do wrong livelihood, etc.
that is personal or cultural then and probably could be defined as 'wrong view'
Possibly, though I think it's important to consider the spirit of Buddhist ethics as well as the letter, and IMO the spirit of these ethics is closely associated with Right Intention.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by seeker242 » Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:04 pm

mahat wrote:
seeker242 wrote:
mahat wrote:Again, there are those who follow the cult of vegetarianism/veganism and there are those who follow Buddhism. Lord Buddha clearly saw that our bodies would not thrive on a plant based diet since our digestive system is poor we needed to allow vegetarian animals to digest the food and started raising animals for food---and true to his word all the great civilizations were built by nonVegetarians and nonVegetarians such as the Japanese and Swiss are the longest living people on earth:
Our lord and true refuge would never, under any circumstances, approve of what goes on at a factory farm. If you want to know about people who live the longest, National Geographic "Blue Zones" studies identify the pockets of people around the world who live the longest. They found nine things in common for the longest living people on the planet. One of them is their diet, which is described as "mostly plant origin". I'm sorry friend but you have been given bad information.
This is incorrect. "Mostly" plant based is not plant based and the longest lived people in civilization are nonVegetarians. They are tough enough to create civilizations which allow humans to progress.

You can go live in the jungle where there is no stress, I am sure there are ascetics who live even longer"feeding on priti like the Abhassara Devas", but all of us are not there yet. There are enough humans suffering -- when humans suffer, animals suffer for the most part, laws are there against abusing animals and those should be enforced if there are any companies mistreating animals.

There are farmers killing millions of animals farming-- has that stopped you from eating your vegetables and grains? Abuse of plants made plants gain self defense mechanism where we can no longer fullY digest plant matter. Lord Buddha describes this in The Aganna Sutta. Our lust and greed are the problem, until then our body requires meat in it's current state and Buddhism is about "seeing things as they are"

A responsible and real Buddhist ensures the general population eats a BALANCED diet and eats mindfully -- including fish and meat and not live on vitamins--specially children. I will NEVER make children feel guilty about eating fish or meat! Shame on any Buddhist who does!
Buddhism is about "seeing things as they are". And when one sees such tremendous suffering taking place, it's not appropriate to just ignore it and continue on as usual. Does the Lord Buddha approve of what goes on at a factory farm?
laws are there against abusing animals and those should be enforced if there are any companies mistreating animals.
I don't know about your country, but in the US, farm animals under the law, are specifically exempt from many animal cruelty laws.

According to the US ASPCA
"Federal Laws

The U.S. has no federal laws protecting farm animals while they’re actually on the farms where they are raised. Two federal laws cover farm animals during transport and slaughter, but tragically, all poultry species are excluded, making these protections inapplicable to 95% of land animals killed for food.

Transport: The 28-Hour Law requires that animals transported across state lines for slaughter, by means other than water or air, be unloaded every 28 hours for rest, food and water. In addition to excluding poultry, this law is riddled with loopholes.
Slaughter: The Humane Methods of Livestock Slaughter Act (HMLSA) requires that livestock be quickly rendered insensible to pain before being slaughtered. In addition to excluding poultry, the law exempts certain forms of religious slaughter such as Kosher and Halal.

Because federal law fails to protect most farm animals, state laws are these animals’ last defense.

State Laws

The majority of U.S. states expressly exempt farm animals, or certain farming practices, from their anti-cruelty provisions, making it nearly impossible to provide even meager protections. Exemptions usually include common agricultural practices that, while common, are often shockingly cruel.
The US laws protecting animals from cruelty generally do not apply to animals raised for food. They apply to cats and dogs, but not to feeder pigs.

As far as a balanced diet goes. It's best to ask the professional scientists about that. They say:
"It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes."
The American Dietetic Association, now called the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, is the single largest organization of food and nutrition specialists in the world. The idea that vegetarianism is unhealthy, is just a result of not understanding the science.

But, I don't know why I'm telling you all this, you won't listen to me anyway! :lol:

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder » Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:22 pm

seeker242 ..."But, I don't know why I'm telling you all this, you won't listen to me anyway! :lol: "
Yes. With this realization, you understand and demonstrate the difference between "broadcasting" and "communication".
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist » Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:45 pm

I would respectfully direct you both, in this case, to the link in my signature....

Should you be so inclined....!

;)
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by walkart » Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:03 pm

Peoples who buy meat motivate others to hold a wrong livelihood. Imho.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:08 pm

walkart wrote:Peoples who buy meat motivate others to hold a wrong livelihood. Imho.
"It would be good, lord, if the Blessed One would teach me the Dhamma in beef..."

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by LXNDR » Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:33 pm

walkart wrote:Peoples who buy meat motivate others to hold a wrong livelihood. Imho.
who then do we care about, the slaughtered live creatures or the slaughterers?

quitting buying meat isn't going to turn stock breeders and slaughterers into buddhists and won't rectify their livelihood overall, their souls won't be saved

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist » Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:45 pm

There was a series on UK TV some time ago, on the RSPCA, and how 6 new recruits in different parts of the county were doing in their training.
As viewers, we followed their progress.

One of the things they had to do was to visit an abattoir and put an animal to sleep by shooting it through the brain with a gun.
It was explained that in any event, the likelihood of their having to ever actually carry out such a task as qualified officers was extremely rare. Of their 6 personal mentors and 6 course instructors, only one of them had been called to carry out the required action, and even he arrived on the scene to find a vet had already put the animal out of its misery.
But they at least had to know how to perform the task quickly and efficiently.

Only 2 of the 6 came up to the task, and they were visibly shaken and affected by their ordeal. One had to take the remainder of the day off.

The other four deferred that part of the training, and were advised that they would either have to complete the task within the first 6 months of gaining their Pass mark and joining the ranks of qualified officers, or they would have to 'reconsider their positions within the Society'.
3 of the four 'refusals' were male. The two who managed to shoot the bulls were one male and one female.

Only three of the six ever completed their full training.

It seems that even those one would consider qualified to cope with any aspect of dealing with an injured, distressed or abused animal find it challenging (to put it mildly).

Imagine what would happen if every human being was responsible for dealing with their own meat as food.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....

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