the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:23 am

lostitude wrote: No oils? Funny because from a dietetic point of view vegetal oils along with fibers are the two main tools that help improve patients' lipid profile.
It's potentially very serious:
Triglycerides – this term refers to fat in the blood. This is a kind of fat that people eat, found mostly in vegetable oil and animal fats. When it exists in high levels in your blood, it can signal increased risk for cardiovascular disease, because triglycerides also contribute to a buildup of plaque in your arteries.
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/digestiv ... terol.html
Since I already have high blood pressure, I need to reduce the fat in my blood as much as possible.
lostitude wrote: More generally, have you visited the American Dietetians Association's website?
I don't know. Maybe that's a good idea.
Last edited by Santi253 on Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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lostitude
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lostitude » Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:24 am

Santi253 wrote:
Justsit wrote:To make sure your protein needs are being met, you will first need to calculate your RDA.

An example, using round numbers for easy calculation:

if you weigh 220lb, convert to KG by dividing by 2.2 = 100kg.

Multiply by 0.8= 80g protein needed daily.

Be sure to check food labels for serving size to calculate protein content correctly.

I find I often need to supplement protein, and I eat very little dairy other than Greek yogurt, so I make a smoothie using a plant based protein powder such as Plant Fusion, add a banana, splash of honey, and 1 C. unsweetened vanilla almond milk. You can add some peanut butter and/or cottage cheese to up the protein amount. Yields roughly 30-35g protein.
Thanks for the advice. I would have never thought of an online calculator for protein intake.
Based on the weight, American Dietetic Association (ADA) recommend taking at least 92 - 115 grams of protein per day.

Based on the conditions, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) recommend taking 61 - 213 grams of protein per day, which is 10% - 35% of your daily Calorie intake.
http://www.calculator.net/protein-calculator.html
Does walking between a half-mile to a mile a day count as light exercise? I put in "sedentary" as my exercise level.
There is a mistake here. The weight you should put in is not your current weight. It is your 'healthy' weight, ie. the weight you can reasonably achieve and maintain.
If you eat the amount of nutrients calculated on the basis of your current weight, then you are bound to remain at the same weight. Nutrients = calories. You only want to feed the 'part' of your body you want to keep, not the fat, so you exclude the fat you want to shed from the calculations.

The only thing whose intake should be calculated based on your current weight is water, because it should hydrate all of your body, including the fatty deposits.

lostitude
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lostitude » Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:29 am

binocular wrote:
Santi253 wrote:Should I get one of those pedometers? I haven't previously thought about using statistics like that.
The general rule of thumb in any physical activity is that the optimal rate of exertion is when you can't talk conveniently anymore because you are breathing too intensely for normal talking.
Plus I suggest you make sure to have a cardiac checkup before embarking on cardio exercises...

lostitude
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lostitude » Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:35 am

Santi253 wrote:
lostitude wrote: No oils? Funny because from a dietetic point of view vegetal oils along with fibers are the two main tools that help improve patients' lipid profile.
It's potentially very serious:
Triglycerides – this term refers to fat in the blood. This is a kind of fat that people eat, found mostly in vegetable oil and animal fats. When it exists in high levels in your blood, it can signal increased risk for cardiovascular disease, because triglycerides also contribute to a buildup of plaque in your arteries.
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/digestiv ... terol.html
Of course high levels of blood triglycerides can be very serious. Are you sure you don't have that? Overweight patients with high LDL often have elevated blood triglycerides too.

However triglycerides from the food should not be confused with circulating triglycerides in the blood. They are not chemically the same.
A significant amount of 'bad' triglycerides in your blood are actually produced by your liver, if you eat too much sugar, especially fructose, which you find a lot in the US in the form of high-fructose corn syrup and the like. Pretty much any industrial food item which is not salty is likely to contain that in the US. The problem with fructose overconsumption is that it promotes triglycderide production by the liver, and those triglycerides end up in the blood, and they are of the saturated type, which is not the type you want. The type you want is unsaturated, and it mostly comes from oils.

Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:59 am

lostitude wrote: Of course high levels of blood triglycerides can be very serious. Are you sure you don't have that? Overweight patients with high LDL often have elevated blood triglycerides too.
I guess I should see my doctor soon. I hope he doesn't try to talk me out of a vegetarian diet.
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Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:59 am

I just posted this on Tumblr, explaining how I really feel about veganism:

I have nothing against vegans as people or veganism as a diet or lifestyle choice. What’s dumb is the militant veganism that seeks to shame, troll or harass vegetarians who don’t share their abstinence from all animal products.

A majority of vegetarians in the United States are not strict vegans, instead eating honey, eggs, dairy products, etc., and probably also wearing leather belts or carrying leather purses, and washing themselves with sodium tallowate.

Out of the world’s countries, India has the most vegetarians, both by percentage of population and sheer number of vegetarians. Hinduism, Jainism, Sikhism, and Buddhism, Indian religions, all have strong vegetarian traditions.

Accordingly, India has the lowest rate of meat consumption in the world, and more vegetarians than the rest of the world combined. Guess what? India is not a vegan culture, instead venerating the cow as a source of milk.

Shiva and the Buddha both have man buns, without being annoying PETA hipsters. They want their hairstyle back.
Last edited by Santi253 on Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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lostitude
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lostitude » Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:13 am

Santi253 wrote:
lostitude wrote: Of course high levels of blood triglycerides can be very serious. Are you sure you don't have that? Overweight patients with high LDL often have elevated blood triglycerides too.
Triglycerides should appear on your blood test results. It's impossible they haven't dosed that, if they measured cholesterol, both go hand in hand.

I guess I should see my doctor soon. I hope he doesn't try to talk me out of a vegetarian diet.
Triglycerides should appear on your blood test results. It's impossible they haven't dosed that, if they measured cholesterol, both go hand in hand.

I honestly don't see why your doctor would try to talk you out of a vegetarian diet. I'm not a doctor but I've followed many patients with similar health concerns and more and more doctors, especially the younger generation, are really aware of the importance of a proper diet instead of systematically medicating their patients with statins. I would advise you to try and see a dietitian. Unlike doctors, dietitians are entirely specialized in nutrition, and they are often better informed about the content and properties of foods than many doctors. A dietitian in the US has a master's degree, ie. five years of studies centered on therapeutic nutrition. They know their stuff, and they are definitely not against vegetarianism, as you will realize if you have a look at the American Dietetitians Association as mentioned before.

Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:25 am

lostitude wrote:
Santi253 wrote:
lostitude wrote: Of course high levels of blood triglycerides can be very serious. Are you sure you don't have that? Overweight patients with high LDL often have elevated blood triglycerides too.
Triglycerides should appear on your blood test results. It's impossible they haven't dosed that, if they measured cholesterol, both go hand in hand.

I guess I should see my doctor soon. I hope he doesn't try to talk me out of a vegetarian diet.
Triglycerides should appear on your blood test results. It's impossible they haven't dosed that, if they measured cholesterol, both go hand in hand.

I honestly don't see why your doctor would try to talk you out of a vegetarian diet. I'm not a doctor but I've followed many patients with similar health concerns and more and more doctors, especially the younger generation, are really aware of the importance of a proper diet instead of systematically medicating their patients with statins. I would advise you to try and see a dietitian. Unlike doctors, dietitians are entirely specialized in nutrition, and they are often better informed about the content and properties of foods than many doctors. A dietitian in the US has a master's degree, ie. five years of studies centered on therapeutic nutrition. They know their stuff, and they are definitely not against vegetarianism, as you will realize if you have a look at the American Dietetitians Association as mentioned before.
Okay. What is the difference between a dietitian and a nutritionist?
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lostitude
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lostitude » Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:35 am

Santi253 wrote: Okay. What is the difference between a dietitian and a nutritionist?
This really depends on national regulations, and I'm not in the US so I can't give you a definitive answer. In many countries, 'dietitian' is a protected title, so you are certain that someone calling themselves 'dietitian' is really qualified and has passed the exams to obtain a registration to practice. In the US I believe that most dietitians call themselves 'R.Ds' for 'registered dietitians', so it seems to apply to the US too.
A nutritionist, on the other hand, does not necessarily have any qualification. It might just be someone with an amateur interest in nutrition who's read some books and starts a business counceling people on nutrition. But you also have doctors who call themselves nutritionists and are extremely competent. So it really depends. The best is to inquire about their degrees, most practitioners tend to gladly advertize all the degrees they've earned rather than hide them anyway.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:27 pm

Dr. Dean Ornish's diet is one of the few diets clinically proven to reverse heart disease:
Dr. Dean Ornish is the first clinician to offer documented proof that heart disease can be halted, or even reversed, simply by changing your lifestyle. Based on his internationally acclaimed scientific study, which has now been ongoing for years, Dr. Ornish’s program has yielded amazing results. Participants reduced or discontinued medications; their chest pain diminished or disappeared; they felt more energetic, happy, and calm; they lost weight while eating more; and blockages in coronary arteries were actually reduced.

In his breakthrough book, Dr. Ornish presents this and other dramatic evidence and guides you, step-by-step, through the extraordinary Opening Your Heart program, which is winning landmark approval from America’s health insurers.
http://deanornish.com/books/
Dr. Ornish recommends a vegetarian diet with egg whites and nonfat dairy products, along with an avoidance of oils:
http://health.howstuffworks.com/wellnes ... n-diet.htm

I am surprised by the real health benefits offered by such a diet, including getting enough protein and B12, along with how good egg whites and nonfat dairy foods actually taste. It doesn't taste like bland diet foods. A little fat-free sour cream on a baked potato goes a long way.

I have three daughters, and I want to be present and healthy for when they are old enough to get married. I'll be between fifty and sixty during that time, and my grandfather on my father's side died when he was only fifty-eight.
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Dhammanando
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Dhammanando » Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:24 pm

Santi253 wrote:Okay. What is the difference between a dietitian and a nutritionist?
It's explained by Dara O'Briain at 3:40

"Anyone can call themselves a 'nutritionist'. 'Dietician' is the legally protected term. 'Dietician' is like 'dentist'. 'Nutritionist' is like 'toothiologist'."


lostitude
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lostitude » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:06 pm

Santi253 wrote:Dr. Dean Ornish's diet is one of the few diets clinically proven to reverse heart disease:
I very much doubt that. He is no pionner, however he is a very competent salesman.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... -is-wrong/
But what about the claims Ornish makes about the success of his own diet—do they hold up to scrutiny? Not exactly. His famous 1990 Lifestyle Heart trial involved a total of 48 patients with heart disease. Twenty-eight were assigned to his low-fat, plant-based diet and 20 were given usual cardiac care. After one year those following his diet were more likely to see a regression in their atherosclerosis.
But here’s the thing: The patients who followed his diet also quit smoking, started exercising and attended stress management training. The people in the control group were told to do none of these things. It’s hardly surprising that quitting smoking, exercising, reducing stress and dieting—when done together—improves heart health. But fact that the participants were making all of these lifestyle changes means that we cannot make any inferences about the effect of the diet alone./quote]

Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:04 am

Of course, it has to be holistic, as to include exercise and non-consumption of alcohol and tobacco, and we shouldn't take every diet's claim at face value.

The only fair way we can judge a diet is how it compares to other diets, especially in how it compares to the typical American diet:
Until recently, when we started exporting the S.A.D. (standard American diet) to the rest of the world, the majority of people on the planet were on a plant-based diet, so historically it's not radical.

Caldwell Esselstyn, M.D., of the Cleveland Clinic and cardiologist Dean Ornish, M.D., in California proved years ago using sequential arteriograms that this diet reverses heart disease. Esselstyn says that what should be considered radical is going in the hospital, having your chest cut open and the blockages in your arteries bypassed, risking serious complications including death, and incurring tens of thousands of dollars in medical expenses.

Plant-based nutrition has no side effects, costs nothing, and treats and reverses the cause of heart disease (atherosclerosis, aka hardening of the arteries), extends life and within days improves quality of life (e.g. angina resolves).
http://www.postindependent.com/news/rum ... strictive/
Most diets that the public hears about are stupid, because they over-promise quick weight loss. Some other diets, which don't make such exaggerated claims of quick results, are instead for long-term health, to prevent diseases like diabetes and heart disease.

Please keep in mind that the above article is not trying to sell anything. Dr. Feinsinger is offering diet advice as a free service to the public:
Dr. Feinsinger, who retired from Glenwood Medical Associates after 42 years as a family physician, now has a nonprofit Center For Prevention and Treatment of Disease Through Nutrition. He is available for free consultations about heart attack prevention and any other medical concerns. Call 970-379-5718 for an appointment. For questions about his columns, email him at gfeinsinger@comcast.net.
http://www.postindependent.com/news/rum ... strictive/
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Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:04 am

If you want to know who only cares about selling books, Dr. Robert Atkins was an incredible opportunist:



He made millions of dollars selling books that recommended a high-fat, low-carb diet, without using that money to actually fund studies that his recommendations reversed heart disease. Now we see this all over again, with the keto and paleo diets.

Is it any coincidence that all the major promoters of these low-carb, high-fat diets are overweight, despite following their own recommendations?
https://www.camanoislandmills.com/diet- ... still-fat/

I am not saying this to hurt or shame anyone. Instead, the public deserves to know they've been deceived, while these diet authors get rich from telling people on bad diets whatever they want to hear.
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chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:52 am

Have there been any studies of the atkins diet?
https://www.google.co.th/#q=Have+there+ ... 9748603591
chownah

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