the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
lostitude
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lostitude »

Santi253 wrote:
lostitude wrote:And on top of that, your method is fallacious and deceptive because you use arguments against excessive meat consumption to condemn ANY type of non-vegetarian diet, even moderate ones.
No. What I said is that people like myself, who are already addicted to meat and junk food, need to cut these things out of our diet entirely in the same way that heroin addicts need to quit heroin entirely.
Sorry but you posted almost a dozen messages that went far beyond what you're saying now. Otherwise why do you think I have reacted? Everyone keeps telling you that you'll be just fine on a veggie diet but you keep insisting that meat is bad period... Then be clear and state clearly that meat is bad FOR YOU, not for everyone.

If all of my health problems can be alleviated by a vegan diet, then that is my decision, and mine alone, to make.
And you have our full support in this vegan diet you wish to start, as has already been said to you at least three times in this thread.
Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

lostitude wrote: Everyone keeps telling you that you'll be just fine on a veggie diet but you keep insisting that meat is bad period...
What's bad is the typical American diet, which is based on excessive meat consumption, and its associated health problems. Where one draws the line as excessive, from a medical perspective, is when it starts to have an adverse effect on your health.
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Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

Given the things I've shared in this thread, it would be irresponsible of me to forget pointing out that I am not a provider of medical advice whatsoever. http://www.Plantbaseddocs.com can help you find a licensed doctor or nutritionist in your area to support a plant-based lifestyle. I am unqualified to make dietary recommendations.
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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lyndon taylor »

Plant based diet is pretty well respected in the medical profession, Atkins diet, not so much. Plant based diet is purported to clear out your clogged arteries making bypass surgery unnecessary. My Cardiologist highly recommended it for my heart disease. Atkins diet is really dangerous because it only works if you eliminate almost all carbs, making your body unable to digest all the fat, add a small amount of carbs to that and you're just a dangerous high fat diet, no advantage to reducing carbs, you have to eliminate them for the Atkins diet to work, and even then Dr Atkins had heart disease and a heart attack, not really glowing praise.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah »

Another perspective on dr. atkins's death:
https://www.verywell.com/how-did-atkins-die-2241657
An excerpt which might give pause to think:
In 2000, Dr. Atkins developed cardiomyopathy, an incurable heart condition which has quite a few different causes. His was thought to be from a viral illness, and his physician stated at the time that there was no evidence that his diet contributed to the condition. His coronary arteries were reported to have been checked at that time and found to be free of blockages.
Please note that I am not giving any opinion either pro or con on the atkins diet.
chownah
Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

chownah wrote:Another perspective on dr. atkins's death:
https://www.verywell.com/how-did-atkins-die-2241657
An excerpt which might give pause to think:
In 2000, Dr. Atkins developed cardiomyopathy, an incurable heart condition which has quite a few different causes. His was thought to be from a viral illness, and his physician stated at the time that there was no evidence that his diet contributed to the condition. His coronary arteries were reported to have been checked at that time and found to be free of blockages.
Please note that I am not giving any opinion either pro or con on the atkins diet.
chownah
I am more concerned about how Dr. Atkins' message influenced the general public than how he may have died.

This is from neurologist and debunker Dr. Steven Novella:
Low-carb, high-fat diets are likely not heart healthy, although this data is mixed. It seems that there are negative effects of a high-fat diet, but these are offset in the short term by weight loss. So if one loses weight on a low-carb, high-fat diet the net effect is positive for heart risk factors. But since weight loss on such diets is almost always short term, the long term health effects may be negative. But evidence is mixed...

For heart health, the amount of total fat may be a factor, but this is unclear. What is clear is that they type of fat is a significant factor. Vegetable sources of fat have a protective effect, while animal fat increases cardiovascular risk.

In other words – how much carbs vs fat one eats should not be a major concern, and may be largely irrelevant. While the types of carbs and especially fats is important for cardiovascular health.

To summarize, in my opinion here are the best diet recommendations that can be made from existing evidence:
– Eat a varied diet, mostly plant-based
– Limit carbohydrates with a high glycemic index (simple sugars and starches)
– Do not diet for weight loss. Rather, employ reasonable portion control and exercise regularly.
http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/12/14/s ... carb-diet/
This is from Quack Watch:
Atkins advocated his diet for more than 30 years and stated that more than 60,000 patients treated at his center had used his diet as their primary protocol. However, he never published any study in which people who used his program were monitored over a period of several years.
It would not have been difficult for him to compile simple data, but I have seen no evidence that did so.

Recent studies of up to two years have found that low-carbohydrate diets can produce modest weight loss and reduction in cardiac risk factors, which means that they are safer than previously thought. However, it has not yet been determined whether such diets are safe for long-term use or can reduce the incidence of coronary heart disease.

The popularity of low-carbohydrate diets has encouraged food companies to market low-carbohydrate foods for people who want to "watch their carbs." Most of these foods are much higher in fat than the foods they are designed to replace. I believe that "low-carb" advertising is encouraging both dieters and nondieters to eat high-fat foods, which is exactly the opposite of what medical and nutrition authorities have been urging for decades. Following a low-carbohydrate diet under medical supervision may make sense for some people, but a population-wide increase in fat consumption would not. My advice to people who are considering a low-carbohydrate diet is not to try it on their own by reading a book, but to seek supervision from a physician who can monitor what they do.
https://www.quackwatch.org/06ResearchProjects/lcd.html
Last edited by Santi253 on Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

We should also be mindful of how the food industry has influenced government policy and mainstream news reporting to keep Americans sick and fat, all for their own profits.

The findings of Senator McGovern's Select Committee on Nutrition and Human Needs have, throughout the decades, largely been ignored or buried, due to the threat it posed to the sugar, dairy, and meat industries:
McGovern's Select Committee on Nutrition and Human Needs expanded its scope to include national nutrition policy. In 1977 it issued a new set of nutritional guidelines for Americans that sought to combat leading killer health conditions.[238][239][240] Titled Dietary Goals for the United States, but also known as the "McGovern Report",[238] it suggested that Americans eat less fat, less cholesterol, less refined and processed sugars, and more complex carbohydrates and fiber.[240] While many public health officials had said all of this for some time, the committee's issuance of the guidelines gave it higher public profile.[240] The recommendations proved controversial with the cattle, dairy, egg, and sugar industries, including from McGovern's home state.[239]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_McGovern
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

lyndon taylor wrote:Plant based diet is pretty well respected in the medical profession, Atkins diet, not so much. Plant based diet is purported to clear out your clogged arteries making bypass surgery unnecessary.
Should I eat egg whites as a source of protein while on a vegetarian diet?

I am surprised by how low-fat, low-cholesterol and high in protein they are:
Unlike the yolk, which is high in lipids (fats), egg white contains almost no fat, and carbohydrate content is less than 1%. Egg whites contain just over 50% of the protein in the egg.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egg_white
If it's unethical or uncompassionate to eat meat, is it less so to eat eggs?
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chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah »

Santi253 wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:Plant based diet is pretty well respected in the medical profession, Atkins diet, not so much. Plant based diet is purported to clear out your clogged arteries making bypass surgery unnecessary.
Should I eat egg whites as a source of protein while on a vegetarian diet?

I am surprised by how low-fat, low-cholesterol and high in protein they are:
Unlike the yolk, which is high in lipids (fats), egg white contains almost no fat, and carbohydrate content is less than 1%. Egg whites contain just over 50% of the protein in the egg.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egg_white
If it's unethical or uncompassionate to eat meat, is it less so to eat eggs?
It would depend on what criteria one uses to determine if eating meat is unethical or uncompassionate.
chownah
Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

chownah wrote: It would depend on what criteria one uses to determine if eating meat is unethical or uncompassionate.
chownah
I'm thinking about maybe also eating fat-free cheese as a source of protein, which is also low in cholesterol.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Phena
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Phena »

Santi253 wrote:
chownah wrote: It would depend on what criteria one uses to determine if eating meat is unethical or uncompassionate.
chownah
I'm thinking about maybe also eating fat-free cheese as a source of protein, which is also low in cholesterol.
Excellent idea. Lacto-ovo - a good middle-way approach :twothumbsup:
Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

Phena wrote:
Santi253 wrote:
chownah wrote: It would depend on what criteria one uses to determine if eating meat is unethical or uncompassionate.
chownah
I'm thinking about maybe also eating fat-free cheese as a source of protein, which is also low in cholesterol.
Excellent idea. Lacto-ovo - a good middle-way approach :twothumbsup:
Yeah, but I really have to be careful about it. Thank you for the encouragement. If I find that I can't control my consumption of even fat-free cheese, I will avoid it entirely or try a vegan cheese instead. I would imagine that even fat-free cheese is very palatable, and I tend to enjoy possibly extreme amounts of cheese.
Last edited by Santi253 on Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

I thought for a second if I should eat fish as a source of protein, since it's also low-fat and low-cholesterol, but it still involves the killing of an animal, fish are exposed to toxins like mercury, and over-fishing is a serious environmental problem:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overfishing
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah »

Santi253 wrote:
chownah wrote: It would depend on what criteria one uses to determine if eating meat is unethical or uncompassionate.
chownah
I'm thinking about maybe also eating fat-free cheese as a source of protein, which is also low in cholesterol.
It would depend on what criteria one uses to determine if eating fat-free cheese is unethical or uncompassionate.
chownah
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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lyndon taylor »

chownah wrote:
Santi253 wrote:
chownah wrote: It would depend on what criteria one uses to determine if eating meat is unethical or uncompassionate.
chownah
I'm thinking about maybe also eating fat-free cheese as a source of protein, which is also low in cholesterol.
It would depend on what criteria one uses to determine if eating fat-free cheese is unethical or uncompassionate.
chownah
I depends on what criteria we would use to determine if your opinions are ethical or compassionate, wouldn't it??
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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