the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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DNS
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Re: what's wrong with eating meat?

Post by DNS » Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:32 pm

:thanks:

Thanks Ben!

Rather than go with any so-called pro-veggie views or pro-meat biases of certain people, I think I'll stick with the opinion of the scholars mentioned in the article. I did update the page, but to include the important opinions of Dhammapala, one of the greatest Theravada Commentators, if not the most important, who states that the last meal was probably young bamboo shoots.

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Re: what's wrong with eating meat?

Post by poto » Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:33 pm

Ben wrote: And what actually qualifies you to have an opinion on the matter - apart from your own personal prediliction and view?
Having some farm experience I'd have to say a hog's favorite food is snake. I've seen hogs go wild when they find a snake in the field. They'll carry it around like a trophy, even get to fighting over it. Must be some kinda delicacy to them best as I can figure. Never seen hogs fight over mushrooms.

But you're probably right, I'm just an uneducated fool.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis

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Re: what's wrong with eating meat?

Post by Goedert » Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:24 pm

From what it is seen a wild boar's diet consists mainly of plants.

Indeed wild boar favorite is fungi, but they feed themselfs on: Roots, fruits, nuts, fungi, insects, amphibians, reptiles, small mammals, birds, carrion.

In the wild, they are foraging animals, primarily eating leaves, grasses, roots, fungi, fruits and flowers.

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Re: what's wrong with eating meat?

Post by 5heaps » Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:35 am

username_5 wrote:Why is it a problem if a Buddhist enjoys a BigMac?
its coarse and disturbs deep meditation, plus it creates tendencies youll have to deal with in future lifetimes (ie. the desire to eat meat, being born around shmucks who eat meat, etcetc)
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."

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Re: what's wrong with eating meat?

Post by jcsuperstar » Sun Aug 29, 2010 1:41 am

5heaps wrote: being born around shmucks who eat meat,
what about non shmucks who eat meat? or what if youre born around shmucks who dont eat meat? so so many shmucks in the world
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: what's wrong with eating meat?

Post by bodom » Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:08 am

5heaps wrote:
username_5 wrote:Why is it a problem if a Buddhist enjoys a BigMac?
its coarse and disturbs deep meditation...
Ahh yes, the dreaded 6th hindrance...
Monks, there are six impediments and hindrances, overgrowths of the mind that stultify insight. What six? Sensual desire is an impediment and hindrance, an overgrowth of the mind that stultifies insight. Ill-will... Sloth and torpor... Restlessness and remorse... Sceptical doubt... Big Mac's from Micky D's...are impediments and hindrances, overgrowths of the mind that stultify insight. — AN 5:51
:tongue:

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

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Re: what's wrong with eating meat?

Post by Prasadachitta » Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:16 am

bodom wrote:
5heaps wrote:
username_5 wrote:Why is it a problem if a Buddhist enjoys a BigMac?
its coarse and disturbs deep meditation...
Ahh yes, the dreaded 6th hindrance...
Monks, there are six impediments and hindrances, overgrowths of the mind that stultify insight. What six? Sensual desire is an impediment and hindrance, an overgrowth of the mind that stultifies insight. Ill-will... Sloth and torpor... Restlessness and remorse... Sceptical doubt... Big Mac's from Micky D's...are impediments and hindrances, overgrowths of the mind that stultify insight. — AN 5:51
:tongue:

:anjali:
Wow. Ive found a hindrance I have totally overcome. I am completely free of this hindrance to insight. I must have overcome it in a past life. :tongue:
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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Re: what's wrong with eating meat?

Post by appicchato » Sun Aug 29, 2010 3:27 am

One might say that sarcasim is a hinderance too...where's the benefit?...

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Re: what's wrong with eating meat?

Post by bodom » Sun Aug 29, 2010 3:36 am

No benefit in having a sense of humour then either I guess? Oh thats right im a Buddhist. I must have forgot its all about gloom and doom..

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

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Re: what's wrong with eating meat?

Post by 5heaps » Sun Aug 29, 2010 3:44 am

bodom wrote:Ahh yes, the dreaded 6th hindrance...
it would come under sensual desire for obvious reasons and also dullness/sloth
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."

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Re: what's wrong with eating meat?

Post by bodom » Sun Aug 29, 2010 3:49 am

5heaps wrote:
bodom wrote:Ahh yes, the dreaded 6th hindrance...
it would come under sensual desire for obvious reasons and also dullness/sloth
It was a joke..im well aware of what constitutes sensual desire.

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

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Prasadachitta
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Re: what's wrong with eating meat?

Post by Prasadachitta » Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:05 am

appicchato wrote:One might say that sarcasim is a hinderance too...where's the benefit?...
Ven. Appicchato
If I offended in any way I am truly sorry. The issue of eating meat brings a solemness which I was hoping to lighten. I did not mean to diminish anyone's remarks.


Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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Re: what's wrong with eating meat?

Post by Goedert » Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:13 am

It is a shame that most of the threads is turning to wild ad hominem speculations and fights. People keep with harsh or sarcastical statements towards others. Lets cultivate restrainment, tame the khandas, be good will, energetic, adicted to seclusion. It is not by means of what type of food that fall in the stomach one gain purification, it is by means of praticing accordance to the dhamma that one gain peace. The truth ly in ourselfs, not on arguments or eloquence speech but simple following the Noble Eightfold path, if you can't do it, go to a lay devote practice such as enjoying making merit and wealth, mindfull and economic about wealth, addited to given.

What is the use of knowing the doctrine and practice the opposition?

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Re: what's wrong with eating meat?

Post by pilgrim » Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:02 am

David N. Snyder wrote:Hi pilgrim,

There is no absence of evidence.

Dhammapala, in his commentary to Udana VIII.5, suggests that it refers to young bamboo shoots trampled by pigs (sukarehi maddita-vamsakaliro).

K.E. Neumann, in the preface to his German translation of the Majjhima Nikaya, quotes from an Indian compendium of medicinal plants, the Rajanigantu, several plants beginning with sukara.

Dhammapala is certainly a very respected and credible Pali scholar, writer of many of the Commentaries.

Other suggestions from the Commentaries include: a medicinal plant or yam or tuber (also vegetarian).
Hello David,
I wasn't aware that the Commentaries also suggested that sukaramaddava could also be a vegetarian dish ( notably bamboo shoots and not mushrooms) Thanks for pointing that out.

However, the statement that "Today, the majority of Buddhist scholars agree that the Buddha ate mushrooms, which may have been poisonous and led to his death at the age of 80." remains factually wrong. It was I B Horner who first suggested that sukaramaddava is truffles in her translation of the Milinda-panha. This was then generalised as mushrooms by more recent scholars. Perhaps it was pork, or perhaps it was a vegetarian dish, it appears that the mystery will not be solved anytime soon, but in view of the fact that the Thai, and Burmese Tipitaka translates the term as pork, the claim that the "majority of Buddhist scholars agree that the Buddha ate mushrooms" is factually incorrect.

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Re: what's wrong with eating meat?

Post by Fede » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:49 am

Given the Buddha's own instructions on what a monk may or may not do with regard to eating meat - does this all really matter?
Didn't the Buddha exhort us to come to our own conclusions using all the tools and guidance available to us (and be the creators of our own Kamma in the process)?


it little matters what is and isn't. What matters is how we view our own actions, and what we do with what we know to be true for ourselves, and how well we stick to our own developed principles.
What matters is our adherence to the 8 and the 5.
What matters is how we practice what we believe to be skilful, and how we do not succumb to doing what is not skilful.

Isn't that enough?

or am I just being a simpleton, yet again......? :thinking: :coffee:
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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