the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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baratgab
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Post by baratgab »

David N. Snyder wrote:Hi baratgab,

I copied and pasted the above excerpts from a couple of posts of yours in other threads. Given your wish to ordain and your vegan diet and wish to remain vegan, how would you do that in regard to the three-fold rule? I congratulate your wish to ordain, but I am curious how it can be done and remain a vegan. I have heard of some monks who go on alms rounds and receive vegetarian and non-vegetarian foods and then when all the food is placed before all the monks for the noon meal, the vegetarian monk chooses the veggies. But what if there were not enough veggies or if meat juices and meat pieces were included in the veggie dishes?
Hi David :smile:

Thanks for the question. Yes, I'm aware of this problem. To outline my attitude, I have to say that I started, and I still follow this path with a universal respect for rational wisdom and compassion. If, regarding what is written about right conduct, something doesn't fit with my perception of wise and compassionate conduct, I feel that to be a real follower of the Dhamma, I am obliged not too take these things just for faith, but to follow my best intuition of wisdom and compassion. For me, this is the proper faith: commitment to the spirit of the Dhamma, instead of faith in the words that are written. Fortunately, there is not much divergence, as far as I see.

Regarding the divergence of meat-eating: Going forth and at the same time starting to devour the flesh of other sentient beings is simply not a path that I am willing to follow. If this would be the only option I would prefer to practice as a self-sustaining hermit, living on plant-foods that are cultivated with no-dig permaculture methods. To be honest, I already semi-started this path, but I ended up deciding that I should give another try to the ordination, because setting up such an environment needs a lot of worldly work and enthusiasm.

So, in the first phase of my planning I asked several people about the possibility of living on fleshless dana in Sri Lanka, and all of the answers were encouraging. I even asked a native, senior Sri Lankan monk, who is openly vegetarian, and who likes to wander and go on pindapata on his own. He said that being a vegetarian monk is not a problem there. He even offered his personal assistance in finding a kind teacher and a good place to practice.

With eating milk and eggs as dana I don't have much problem, even though I know their influence on the health of the body. Also, I have an understanding for poor people who live in rural areas, and have only foods with meat to offer. I think Buddha's instructions and attitude are related specifically to a culture like that, and they are rather problematic to prescribe for today's modern societies; let alone the modern monasteries, where monks don't go on pindapata, lay people buy the foods specifically for the monks, and then later the monastery's guests cook the food in the kitchen... But to back to your question, if there will be little pieces of flesh in my food, probably I will just make peace with that. The point is to uphold values that are pointing towards my perception of higher compassion and wisdom, not to aspire for some sort of perfect personal purity.

I am just noting that this entire topic arises because the world is changing. Vegetarianism slowly starts to symbolize a form of higher morality in the western countries, due to our progressive understanding of human responsibilities towards nonhumans. There are more and more monks and lay people who cannot reconcile the going forth and the monkhood with eating flesh. It will be more and more controversial and stone-age like to uphold an attitude in monastic Buddhism that doesn't give any meaningful concern to flesh-eating. My personal view is that bhikkhus should rejoice in this change towards non-violence and should support it in their own accord; rather than striving to preserve this doctrine of indifference that is now timely to pass.
Sanghamitta wrote:I would like to add a question baratgab. As the majority of your fellow monks will be eating meat, chicken and fish when offered. how will you maintain an attitude of non aversion, when you apprantly consider those items to be non food which you equate morally to human flesh ? Even if you are able to technically avoid eating them yourself. It seems to me that you will be going into the monastic Sangha with a view of food dana very different to what I have been told is the norm. I have heard Ajahn Sumedho stress the importance of not picking and choosing during Dana meals.
Regarding the issue aversion, I will deal with it in the same way as I am now dealing with it as a lay person. I can't see much difference: Switching from the company of flesh-eating lay people to the company of flesh-eating monks. Of course I have to note that there is very little chance that I will seek monks who are utterly indifferent to this issue as my teachers, since I consider this as a sign. But just like in the lay world, having the perception that someone is not the brightest or the most moral doesn't constitute aversion in itself. Some humans are like this, and some humans are like that... This is the nature of things. Also, I plan to live mostly alone, without associating with any specific monastery.

As for Cittaviveka in England, I was a guest there for one month, and at that time the norm of the meals was that monks and lay guests, one after the other, gone to the kitchen, and personally selected foods from the tables full of different dishes. Symbolic pindapata with rice was only practiced on some festival-days. Dishes with meat were normally labelled as such. This was in harmony with the guest monk's reply to my specific question about being vegetarian as a monk; he wrote to me that it is not a problem, and meat-foods are labelled. I also discussed this issue with Bhante Sujato of Santi Forest Monastery, Australia, and according to his reply, they use the same way of serving; the Bhante was vegetarian even in Thailand, as far I know. Also, Bhante Gunaratana's monastery, the Bhavana Society, is a vegetarian place; you can read this specifically on their website. What is more, the new project of the Cittaviveka nun, Ajahn Thanasanti, called Awakening Truth, also directly encourages people to give vegetarian food. I recently read on the Burmese Pa-Auk Forest Monastery's website that they too serve vegetarian meals. The examples are practically everywhere; of course most "traditional" theravadins are more interested in keeping the idea that vegetarianism is still controversial and discouraged.

As an anecdote, while I was in Cittaviveka, one time somebody brought a lot of fried meat slices, and placed on a platter on its own (such prominent meat-serving was very rare; they were usually just bits and pieces in some dishes). To my satisfaction - and to my surprise, to be honest - most of the meat remained on the plate after the visit of the whole Sangha. :P

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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Post by Sanghamitta »

Thank you for your reply baratgab. I am sure that it will not come down to a choice between hermit life and eating meat. I am sure that your moral position will be respected.
I think it was worth David and possibly myself asking for clarification. I think it is a pity that as Bubbabuddhist said recently, threads concerning vegetarian diets tend to be derailed by emotionalism.
All it needed was an exchange of actual facts with the person concerned so thank you again.

I have to declare myself puzzled by your experience of Dana meals at Chithurst.
I have visited Cittaviveka on literally dozens if not hundreds of occasions. I have seen the situation that Fede described with lay people offering rice and then a buffet on "big" occasions. But I have not seen a buffet when there are lay people offering a Dana meal on ordinary days..
On those occasions it has always been a case of people serving the Bhikkhus then Nuns then novices as they walk past. I dont of course doubt your experience. But I wonder of there are particular routines during rains retreat etc. Or on days when there are no lay people to offer the Dana meal. That must happen.
I havent seen it because when I have been there it is with family and friends to offer the Dana meal !
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Post by Ben »

Dear members

As a result of a number of complaints, a series of posts were removed from this thread.

While not all posts removed were in breach of the TOS, I remved some because they referenced another that was in breach.

I would appreciate it if all members could remember the Terms of Service:
Members are expected to self-moderate, being mindful of the adage that 'behaviour breeds behaviour'. Mutual respect and friendliness should be the basis of all interactions.
This message is not targetted at one particular individual but applies to all members.

Thanks for your attention and cooperation.
metta

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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Post by DNS »

Hi Baratgab,

Thanks for the response. I am a vegetarian and was asking as you probably figured out, not to challenge you or question your vegetarian diet, but to see how it could be done. I too, have considered the monastic life in the past and one of the things that led me to my decision to be upasaka was the whole diet issue. As a lay man I can easily choose what to buy at the grocery, but pindapat is another matter completely.

I have heard about how some have done it, such as Bhante Appicchato selecting the veggie foods from the table. I also know of a nun in Thailand who receives pindapat and then gives any meat foods to one of the "temple cats." If you live alone and go on pindapat, what would you do with the meat that is offered?
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Post by catmoon »

David N. Snyder wrote: If you live alone and go on pindapat, what would you do with the meat that is offered?
Mail it to me. :) Seriously, tho, it should not be difficiult to find someone who wants it.
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Post by Fede »

I used to be vegetarian, and was so for three years, until a deficiency in my liver caused my doctor to advise me to take meat again. That was a long time ago, and together with my medical nutritionist's agreement, guidance and advice, I decided, at the beginning of this Lenten period (I'm an ex-Catholic - old habits die hard!) to stop eating meat.
However, I still eat eggs and cheese, (I'm known, I believe as an Ovo-Lacto vegetarian, then) and I still prepare meat meals for my partner, and within my business both recommend, and sell meat products to clients.
I have to confess, I love meat.
I have mixed feelings, terribly mixed, about the moral implications...
On the one hand, we have those who repeat that the Buddha never suggested, insisted, instructed or dictated that people should not eat meat (though he declared that dealing in meat was an unskillful profession).
On the other, we have the argument that the meat industry is a dreadfully exploitative one, and that it causes suffering.
And the arguments are persuasive whichever way you look.
I really don't know which way I fall, and goodness knows, I've had long enough to think about it.

I'm glad I'm off meat right now, though I do miss it....
I may not be able to stick to this forever....

I wish I could be a vegetarian without feeling like a hypocrite.
I wish I could eat meat completely guilt-free....
Maybe Catholic habits die harder than I thought.
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Post by appicchato »

baratgab wrote:I started, and I still follow this path with a universal respect for rational wisdom and compassion. If, regarding what is written about right conduct, something doesn't fit with my perception of wise and compassionate conduct, I feel that to be a real follower of the Dhamma, I am obliged not too take these things just for faith, but to follow my best intuition of wisdom and compassion. For me, this is the proper faith: commitment to the spirit of the Dhamma, instead of faith in the words that are written.
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Post by Cittasanto »

I have heard the quote in talks, but I always thought he was on about some of the sekhia rules regarding how to eat? but not about eating anything and everything, but eating reflectively, for the maintenance and health of the body.

it should possibly be noted that at Amaravati, at least, the monks do actually go and get the food from the servery after it has been formally offered, the are not given it straight into their bowls normally from what I saw.
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Post by Clueless Git »

Fede wrote: I wish I could be a vegetarian without feeling like a hypocrite.
I wish I could eat meat completely guilt-free....
Maybe Catholic habits die harder than I thought.
'Lo Fede :)

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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Post by baratgab »

David N. Snyder wrote:Hi Baratgab,

Thanks for the response. I am a vegetarian and was asking as you probably figured out, not to challenge you or question your vegetarian diet, but to see how it could be done. I too, have considered the monastic life in the past and one of the things that led me to my decision to be upasaka was the whole diet issue. As a lay man I can easily choose what to buy at the grocery, but pindapat is another matter completely.

I have heard about how some have done it, such as Bhante Appicchato selecting the veggie foods from the table. I also know of a nun in Thailand who receives pindapat and then gives any meat foods to one of the "temple cats." If you live alone and go on pindapat, what would you do with the meat that is offered?
One benefit of my studies in permaculture is that now I see that in nature nothing is wasted. I think I would offer the flesh to other sentient beings, who don't have the capacity to be concerned about what they take as nourishment and how their habits influence others. Of course accepting flesh and just not eating it doesn't do much advocacy; people could even think that I am a flesh-eating monk. My intention is to be known as a vegetarian monk, and if I will be of any authority at later times, I think I will take the liberty to raise the issue of flesh-eating to its rational place in the priorities of morality. After all, when the monks are teaching, they often challenge all kinds of lay behaviour, like verbal roughness, idle chatter, watching television, sitting at the computer all day, eating too much, smoking... I find utterly discriminative to leave out an issue that is directly connected to the slaughtering of other sentient beings.

I think in real-world scenarios living on fleshless dana should not be that problematic. We naturally gravitate towards the fulfillment of our aspirations. The place that we choose to practice (and everything else, for that matter) inherently reflects our priorities. If someone goes to a place where meat is abundant, he or she either doesn't care about it, rather keen on self-torment, or simply didn't have enough mindfulness about his or her own actions. I think practicing a healthy evading behaviour plays a significant and natural role in this issue. To me, not going to fishing-villages for pindapat is pretty much like not wandering in a red-light district at evening. Also, the gravitation of aspirations should be true for lay people too. If there are lay people who honour the aspiration of not eating flesh I think they will probably try to be a regular supporter of a vegetarian monk.

But these are just some reflections. I will see how it works out and whether my current priorities turn out to be persistent through my development or not.
Sanghamitta wrote:I have to declare myself puzzled by your experience of Dana meals at Chithurst.
I have visited Cittaviveka on literally dozens if not hundreds of occasions. I have seen the situation that Fede described with lay people offering rice and then a buffet on "big" occasions. But I have not seen a buffet when there are lay people offering a Dana meal on ordinary days..
On those occasions it has always been a case of people serving the Bhikkhus then Nuns then novices as they walk past. I dont of course doubt your experience. But I wonder of there are particular routines during rains retreat etc. Or on days when there are no lay people to offer the Dana meal. That must happen.
I havent seen it because when I have been there it is with family and friends to offer the Dana meal !
There were full dana meals several times, but the food was always served at the kitchen tables, as far as I saw. Maybe what I experienced is part of the winter routines, when prepared food dana is more scarce (though, we threw out - or more precisely, gave to a pig-farm - a lot of food on daily basis, sometimes a full bucket. Or possibly this is related to the fact that Ajahn Sucitto was away at that time, on some sort of tudong...
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Post by Fede »

baratgab wrote:I started, and I still follow this path with a universal respect for rational wisdom and compassion. If, regarding what is written about right conduct, something doesn't fit with my perception of wise and compassionate conduct, I feel that to be a real follower of the Dhamma, I am obliged not too take these things just for faith, but to follow my best intuition of wisdom and compassion. For me, this is the proper faith: commitment to the spirit of the Dhamma, instead of faith in the words that are written. Fortunately, there is not much divergence, as far as I see.
:anjali:
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The whole post is extremely worthy.
Thank you for your input.
It's wonderfully inspirational.
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Post by Sanghamitta »

If I offended anyone with my responses I would like to say I am sorry.
My position is that I am a vegetarian, I have been for thirty years for ethical reasons. In fact I am semi vegan as I have a slight sensitivity to dairy, it makes me over- produce mucus. I encourage others to be vegetarian too. One of the ways I do this is by turning out food to friends and family where they simply dont miss meat at all.
There is a "but "coming.
When I first became a Buddhist many western Buddhists were vegetarian already, that was more than thirty years ago.
I remember a day vipassana retreat at the old Wat Buddhapadipa where food was provided, and the main dish was a lamb stew.
The chief meditation instructor noticed that many of the English attendees left the stew and ate rice, salad, fruit etc. he asked one of the lay people who was on the Temple commitee about this.
Subsequently all retreat were vegetarian. The same Chao Khun afterwards expressed his gratitutude to the English people who had brought about this change without making a fuss about it.
In those days most western Buddhists were attracted to Buddhism and then changed their life style in keeping with that. There were far fewer vegetarians in society as a whole. The result was that those Buddhists who became vegetarians did so without militancy. It was a quiet revolution.
Now we have a situation where vegetarians are attracted to Buddhism. Which is great. However a small minority then become judgemental about those Buddhists who are not vegetarian. I think this is counter-productive and that this judgemental attitude is adhammic .
A few months back I heard a slightly raised voice and hectoring tone, both unusual in a monastic setting and realised that a young woman was lecturing one of the senior Nuns because she had meat in her bowl....the young woman then stormed off and I gather that she then left the individual retreat that she was on and went home.
Now that might be unusual, but I think its an indicator of at the very least, unfortunate expectations.
I think that consciousness about the issues around meat eating IS being raised. But I think we must be careful not to bring a gung ho western attitude to that raising. Buddhism is caught not just taught, and so is vegetarianism.
This not to cast aspertions on anyone who has contributed to this thread. But it is a cause of concern to me.
Once more my apologise if my concern spilled over into intemperate expression.
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Post by Sanghamitta »

NB that incident was still fresh in my mind when I posed my question to baratgab, and no doubt influenced my asking it.
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Post by appicchato »

baratgab wrote:My intention is to be known as a vegetarian monk...
A bit of a sticky wicket...I'm known as a vegetarian monk, but only to those who know me and those I associate with (which aren't many)...not the people who offer food on pindabaht...and, monastically speaking, it's not appropriate to request anything special (meatless offerings)...
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Post by baratgab »

Sanghamitta wrote:... A few months back I heard a slightly raised voice and hectoring tone, both unusual in a monastic setting and realised that a young woman was lecturing one of the senior Nuns because she had meat in her bowl....the young woman then stormed off and I gather that she then left the individual retreat that she was on and went home. Now that might be unusual, but I think its an indicator of at the very least, unfortunate expectations. ...
What this story indicates for me is that today there are indeed strong emotions about this issue. You can't possibly explain how a Buddhist monk could accept and eat the flesh of sentient beings to any ethical, non-Buddhist vegan or vegetarian. They just don't buy it.

Regarding flesh-consumption, their behaviour is often not so respectful, but I think it is important to point out how extremely demanding can be to be truly conscious about the related issues. Many of these people literally carry with themselves day to day the suffering of those 53 billion terrestrial animals and twice as much fish that are slaughtered every single year worldwide by our fellow humans, needlessly. This burden is just overwhelming for many of them. You can try to watch Earthlings to get a taste.

Besides being conscious about the exploitation of non-human animals, the majority of them (I think) much more conscious about human rights and environmental issues than most other people. It is not rare to see them promoting fair-trade food-items, like banana or cocoa (do you know about the child-slavery issue?); donating to human rights organizations; buying clothing that comes with a guarantee that it is not a sweat-shop product (common practice of the vegan shoe companies); voluntarily restraining their consumption for environmental reasons and so on. Often their whole life centers on moral awareness, without even knowing one bit of Buddhism. I have a respect for the fair-mindedness of these people, and an important part of my aspiration to be a vegetarian monk is to remain trustworthy and valid in their eyes.

Of course I don't want to make excuses for the rough behaviour. The point of my post is that if we get to know the people who act like this, the whole picture can change dramatically. :smile:
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