the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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DNS
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by DNS » Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:30 pm

one_awakening wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:37 am
jcsuperstar wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:08 am

.. and my GF is sorta veg, she eats seafood....
If she eats seafood, she's not a vegetarian
He said "sorta" veg, not completely veg. Anyway, just an FYI, jcsuperstar unfortunately passed away 8 years ago. :candle:

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by DNS » Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:44 pm

chownah wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:55 am
In the wild the infant mortality for large mammals (zebra, giraffe, etc.) is over 50 percent.
chownah
What does that have to do with their diet? I imagine all wild animals have a high infant mortality rate. Apparently the mortality rate has more to do with infections after childbirth, see:

https://www.quora.com/Nature-Are-animal ... n-medicine

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah » Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:28 pm

I have no idea what diet has to do with the infant mortality rate of wild animals.

Does anyone know the infant mortality rate for angus cows?
chownah

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by one_awakening » Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:44 am

DNS wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:30 pm
He said "sorta" veg, not completely veg
You're either vegetarian or you're not
“You only lose what you cling to”

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by DNS » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:29 am

chownah wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:55 am
In the wild the infant mortality for large mammals (zebra, giraffe, etc.) is over 50 percent.
chownah
What does infant mortality rate of wild animals have to do with the price of tea in China? i.e., this topic? :tongue:

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by DNS » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:31 am

one_awakening wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:44 am
DNS wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:30 pm
He said "sorta" veg, not completely veg
You're either vegetarian or you're not
Yes, I suppose you're right. There are many people who call themselves veg but actually eat meat occasionally. That is not really being vegetarian according to the strict definition. Same with being vegan. I sometimes have called myself "mostly vegan" but if I make exceptions now and then, it's not really being vegan, it's more accurate to say vegetarian who only rarely eats some animal products.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:49 am

DNS wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:29 am
chownah wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:55 am
In the wild the infant mortality for large mammals (zebra, giraffe, etc.) is over 50 percent.
chownah
What does infant mortality rate of wild animals have to do with the price of tea in China? i.e., this topic? :tongue:
For instance comparing the infant mortality rate of wild animals with the infant mortality rate of angus cows is a way to have a better understanding about the life of animals in nature and the life of animals that are raised to provide food.
chownah

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:52 am

one_awakening wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:44 am
DNS wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:30 pm
He said "sorta" veg, not completely veg
You're either vegetarian or you're not
I guess that since pretty much all of us have consumed milk at some time in our lives then none of us are strictly vegetarian.....I guess it is pretty much impossible for any mammal to be strictly vegetarian.
chownah

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by DNS » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:56 am

chownah wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:49 am
For instance comparing the infant mortality rate of wild animals with the infant mortality rate of angus cows is a way to have a better understanding about the life of animals in nature and the life of animals that are raised to provide food.
chownah
Oh, okay, so your point might be (?) that domesticated animals have a lower infant mortality rate and therefore a better "quality" of life? Domestic animals receive more care from their owners either due to affection (as in pets) or because of their economic value (farm animals) and receive visits from a veterinarian as needed and therefore tend to have longer lives than their counterparts in the wild.

But from a vegetarian perspective, there would still be a killer, someone killing the animal for food, as part of the meat industry chain of events; someone placing an order, store purchasing more meat, slaughterhouse killing more, requesting more animals from the cattle farmer.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by DNS » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:58 am

chownah wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:52 am
one_awakening wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:44 am
DNS wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:30 pm
He said "sorta" veg, not completely veg
You're either vegetarian or you're not
I guess that since pretty much all of us have consumed milk at some time in our lives then none of us are strictly vegetarian.....I guess it is pretty much impossible for any mammal to be strictly vegetarian.
chownah
Milk is vegetarian. It is not vegan, but it is vegetarian. It could be technically vegan if it is their mother's milk while they are an infant. I don't think vegans advocate abandoning your mother's milk while you are an infant. They just don't approve of cow's milk and animal eggs, and honey.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:52 am

DNS wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:56 am
Oh, okay, so your point might be (?) that domesticated animals have a lower infant mortality rate and therefore a better "quality" of life? Domestic animals receive more care from their owners either due to affection (as in pets) or because of their economic value (farm animals) and receive visits from a veterinarian as needed and therefore tend to have longer lives than their counterparts in the wild.

But from a vegetarian perspective, there would still be a killer, someone killing the animal for food, as part of the meat industry chain of events; someone placing an order, store purchasing more meat, slaughterhouse killing more, requesting more animals from the cattle farmer.
Looks like another :strawman: to me.

"We look after animals till they are fat enough, then kill them." :shrug:
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah » Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:31 am

DNS wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:58 am
chownah wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:52 am
one_awakening wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:44 am


You're either vegetarian or you're not
I guess that since pretty much all of us have consumed milk at some time in our lives then none of us are strictly vegetarian.....I guess it is pretty much impossible for any mammal to be strictly vegetarian.
chownah
Milk is vegetarian. It is not vegan, but it is vegetarian. It could be technically vegan if it is their mother's milk while they are an infant. I don't think vegans advocate abandoning your mother's milk while you are an infant. They just don't approve of cow's milk and animal eggs, and honey.
Strictly speaking milk is not vegetable material.....strictly speaking none of us are strictly vegetarian.
chownah

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by seeker242 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:15 pm

The mortality rate at the abattoir is 100%. The average beef cattle life expectancy is 18-22+ years. The average beef cattle is killed at 18-24 months...That is like a child being killed when they are 6 years old. The typical pig lives 10-12 years. The typical pig is killed at around 6 months old. That is like a child being killed when they are 3 years old...A typical chicken lives about 8 years. Chickens are typically killed when they are 5-7 weeks old. That is like a child being killed when they are 1 year old...

So in other words, we kill cattle when they are just children, kill pigs when they are just toddlers and kill chickens when they are still just infants...

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah » Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:54 pm

From:
https://animals.mom.me/average-long-pigs-live-6144.html
Pigs that are well cared for live an average lifespan of 15 to 20 years -- compared to wild pigs, which are estimated to live only 4 to 8 years.
......
......Wild pigs can live up to 20 years, but their average lifespan is lower -- an average of 4 to 8 years -- due to high mortality rates from predation.
It seems then that the "life style" of domestic pigs is much better....much more humane than the "life style" of wild pigs.

Anyone who has seen chickens at slaughter age knows that they are not infants. Anyone who has seen pigs at slaughter age knows that they are not toddlers. Anyone who has seen cattle at slaughter age knows that they are not children. Just to show how seemingly ridiculous the age comparisons are you need to just remember that a new born calf has developed vision, can stand, walk, and follow their mother and feed itself the day it is born....a newborn calf on the day it is born is years more developed than a human newborn......the comparison as done above is not appropriate.....it is based on a complete ignorance of developmental time lines for animals and humans.

The mortality rate on the savannah is 100% too.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:03 pm

DNS wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:56 am
there would still be a killer, someone killing the animal for food, as part of the meat industry chain of events; someone placing an order, store purchasing more meat, slaughterhouse killing more, requesting more animals from the cattle farmer.
And as a result of this there would be many animals who enter the world, live reasonably comfortable lives if raised by people who care about the welfare of the animals they raise, and who then die in a relatively stress free way...
....compare this with zebra in africa who enter the world sometimes on the run, 50% of which die as infants mostly by predation, are constantly under threat of being eaten by predators, are likely to go through periods of draught and famine, and almost always eventually die in fearful and dire circumstance often being eaten while still alive......virtually ALL of them are violently killed.....none of them are bed ridden for weeks or months.....when you are weakened you are killed and if you are lucky (I guess) you die before you are dismemebered.
chownah

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