the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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seeker242
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Re: Becoming vegetarian

Post by seeker242 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:37 pm

samseva wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:22 am

I don't know for sure, I haven't researched it. It's just that, mathematically, if 95-98% of all soya in North America is genetically modified, it's difficult to think that almost all tofu is non-GMO. That's would mean that, say if 1% of the non-GMO soya is used for non-tofu soya products, that only 1% of all soya in North America is used to produce tofu? Maybe.
I'm just saying that I have researched it. And other people have researched it extensively. If you were to personally contact all the companies producing tofu in north america, which people have actually done when researching it, you would be hard pressed to find one that actually produces gmo tofu. Also, according to the USDA, 94% of soy grown is GMO. However, the % that is commonly quoted as being used as livestock feed is 88% of the total. So mathematically, that leaves 6% gmo and 6% non-gmo, which means mathematically there is no advantage to either. But, that does not even take into account imports of non-gmo beans, which have risen dramatically in recent years.
Anyway, check what you eat and avoid GMO soya/tofu, since 95-98% of soya in North America is genetically modified. That was my point. ;)
Ok, and my point was that companies in north america don't even produce gmo tofu, so gmo tofu is extraordinarily difficult to even find to begin with. It's not difficult to think most tofu on the market is non-gmo when most tofu produced is non-gmo to begin with.

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samseva
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by samseva » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:08 am

Mkoll wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:36 am
[...]
The data on all the studies on GMO food is only from the past few decades. In reality, they don't know much and we will only be able to tell for sure what effects they have after some years.

D1W1
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by D1W1 » Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:56 am

Sorry to cut this guys.
I read vegetarianism can reduce the growth of livestock industry. But the opposite is also true, if vegetarians choose to eat meat, the demand for meat will increase.

I'm just wondering, does anyone know how the meat industry can increase (rapidly) the number of livestock? It takes approximately 2 years, for example, for a calf to fully grow. What do they do specifically to meet the high demand for meat?

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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by D1W1 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:05 pm

Anyone?

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L.N.
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by L.N. » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:04 am

D1W1 wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:05 pm
Anyone?
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by chownah » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:31 am

D1W1 wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:05 pm
Anyone?
You are asking about animal husbandry. Go read up on animal husbandry and it will teach you how fast animals can be raised. It is off topic here in this thread. Maybe you should post in the great vegetarian debate thread....or start a topic to ask this question....but....really.....just go read about animal husbandry and it will tell you.
chownah

SarathW
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by SarathW » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:23 am

I'm just wondering, does anyone know how the meat industry can increase (rapidly) the number of livestock?
By battery farming.

https://www.alv.org.au/justice/
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

D1W1
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by D1W1 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:26 am

Thanks guys for the reply
SarathW wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:23 am
I'm just wondering, does anyone know how the meat industry can increase (rapidly) the number of livestock?
By battery farming.

https://www.alv.org.au/justice/

I used to be a vegetarian and think to become one again but talking about supply and demand, does a vegetarian really make a difference? I think their own individual meat consumption won’t make a difference compared with the scales of production decisions that meat companies make, human population grows much faster and bigger in quantity compare to the growth of vegetarian/vegan population. So how can a vegetarian really make a difference?

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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by SarathW » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:55 am

So how can a vegetarian really make a difference?
Good question.
I think India is the biggest meat exporter where majority of the population is vegetarians.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by binocular » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:56 am

D1W1 wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:26 am
So how can a vegetarian really make a difference?
By increasing the number of vegetarians.
Say, 3 billion vegetarians surely would make a difference.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by SarathW » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:01 am

Say, 3 billion vegetarians surely would make a difference.
Top
Problem is not that simple.
Animal skin fetches more money than the meat content.
Animals are raised not only for meat consumption.
It does not mean we should not be vegetarians.
I consume meat but I enjoy vegetables more than the meat.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

D1W1
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by D1W1 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:48 am

To produce protein from grazing beef, cattle are killed. One death delivers (on average, across Australia’s grazing lands) a carcass of about 288 kilograms. This is approximately 68% boneless meat which, at 23% protein equals 45kg of protein per animal killed. This means 2.2 animals killed for each 100kg of useable animal protein produced.

Producing protein from wheat means ploughing pasture land and planting it with seed. Anyone who has sat on a ploughing tractor knows the predatory birds that follow you all day are not there because they have nothing better to do. Ploughing and harvesting kill small mammals, snakes, lizards and other animals in vast numbers. In addition, millions of mice are poisoned in grain storage facilities every year.

However, the largest and best-researched loss of sentient life is the poisoning of mice during plagues.


Each area of grain production in Australia has a mouse plague on average every four years, with 500-1000 mice per hectare. Poisoning kills at least 80% of the mice.

At least 100 mice are killed per hectare per year (500/4 × 0.8) to grow grain. Average yields are about 1.4 tonnes of wheat/hectare; 13% of the wheat is useable protein. Therefore, at least 55 sentient animals die to produce 100kg of useable plant protein: 25 times more than for the same amount of rangelands beef.

Some of this grain is used to “finish” beef cattle in feed lots (some is food for dairy cattle, pigs and poultry), but it is still the case that many more sentient lives are sacrificed to produce useable protein from grains than from rangelands cattle.

https://theconversation.com/ordering-th ... hands-4659
If anyone here is a vegetarian, what is your reason to maintain your vegetarian diet after reading this article?

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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lyndon taylor » Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:56 am

D1W1 wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:48 am
To produce protein from grazing beef, cattle are killed. One death delivers (on average, across Australia’s grazing lands) a carcass of about 288 kilograms. This is approximately 68% boneless meat which, at 23% protein equals 45kg of protein per animal killed. This means 2.2 animals killed for each 100kg of useable animal protein produced.

Producing protein from wheat means ploughing pasture land and planting it with seed. Anyone who has sat on a ploughing tractor knows the predatory birds that follow you all day are not there because they have nothing better to do. Ploughing and harvesting kill small mammals, snakes, lizards and other animals in vast numbers. In addition, millions of mice are poisoned in grain storage facilities every year.

However, the largest and best-researched loss of sentient life is the poisoning of mice during plagues.


Each area of grain production in Australia has a mouse plague on average every four years, with 500-1000 mice per hectare. Poisoning kills at least 80% of the mice.

At least 100 mice are killed per hectare per year (500/4 × 0.8) to grow grain. Average yields are about 1.4 tonnes of wheat/hectare; 13% of the wheat is useable protein. Therefore, at least 55 sentient animals die to produce 100kg of useable plant protein: 25 times more than for the same amount of rangelands beef.

Some of this grain is used to “finish” beef cattle in feed lots (some is food for dairy cattle, pigs and poultry), but it is still the case that many more sentient lives are sacrificed to produce useable protein from grains than from rangelands cattle.

https://theconversation.com/ordering-th ... hands-4659
If anyone here is a vegetarian, what is your reason to maintain your vegetarian diet after reading this article?
The massive hole in your neat little argument is that cows eat vegetarian food too, 8-10lbs of grain to produce 1lb of meat, so if you feed the people the grain direct you could feed 8-10 people on the food it takes to feed one person with beef, So basically your argument about animals being killed farming grain, you're killing 8-10 times as many animals and the cow as well when you eat meat instead of being vegetarian.
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seeker242
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by seeker242 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:46 pm

D1W1 wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:48 am

Published figures suggest that, in Australia

https://theconversation.com/ordering-th ... hands-4659
If anyone here is a vegetarian, what is your reason to maintain your vegetarian diet after reading this article?
I don't live in Australia. :smile:

And many of the points made have been debunked.

http://www.animalliberation.org.au/blog ... lth-advice

http://www.animalliberation.org.au/blog ... i-land-use

http://www.animalliberation.org.au/blog ... use-deaths
Last edited by seeker242 on Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

binocular
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by binocular » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:55 pm

D1W1 wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:48 am
If anyone here is a vegetarian, what is your reason to maintain your vegetarian diet after reading this article?
I simply don't like the smell and taste of meat, never have.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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