the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Jojola
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jojola » Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:02 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
What comes across to me in these discussions is the sense that some people just enjoy eating meat, and so they resent ethical questions about their dietary choices.


I'm sure with some that is the case, but with others we're just curious how a vegetarian can reconcile their view with the manner of the Buddha, who wasn't one.

Was the Buddha harmful then?
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freedom
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby freedom » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:27 pm

Jojola wrote:
I'm sure with some that is the case, but with others we're just curious how a vegetarian can reconcile their view with the manner of the Buddha, who wasn't one.

Was the Buddha harmful then?


If we pick and choose our foods and enjoy them, there is kamma for that because it involves intention.

If we do not pick and choose our foods but seeing the danger and the draw back of the given foods and having the appreciation for the beings that were sacrififed for our survivals instead of enjoy their meats, then we can escape that kamma.

If we can do the latter then meat or non meat is not a concern. However, most of us cannot.
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

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cjmacie
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby cjmacie » Thu Nov 24, 2016 7:38 am

Enjoy Thanksgiving y'all. Got any "tofurkey" recipes?

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Spiny Norman
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Nov 24, 2016 8:12 am

Jojola wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
What comes across to me in these discussions is the sense that some people just enjoy eating meat, and so they resent ethical questions about their dietary choices.


I'm sure with some that is the case, but with others we're just curious how a vegetarian can reconcile their view with the manner of the Buddha, who wasn't one.

Was the Buddha harmful then?


The Buddha taught Right Intention, which includes harmlessness. And there is the 3-fold rule, the purpose of which was to minimise the slaughter of animals for food.

I don't see eating meat as necessarily an issue, for example if it has already been cooked for others, but I think that choosing to buy meat when alternatives are available is somewhat questionable.
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plwk
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby plwk » Thu Nov 24, 2016 8:12 am

Just for the season of Thanksgiving... Vegan Granny Potty Mouth ahead..thou hast been warnest! :mrgreen:

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seeker242
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby seeker242 » Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:00 pm

Jojola wrote: curious how a vegetarian can reconcile their view with the manner of the Buddha, who wasn't one.



It's reconciled by acknowledging that, unlike most people, the Buddha and his followers were alms beggars who didn't choose their food. Choosing the food vs not choosing the food is considered a different situation. And when you bring factory farming into the picture, that really changes it.

freedom
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby freedom » Thu Nov 24, 2016 4:38 pm

seeker242 wrote:...the Buddha and his followers were alms beggars who didn't choose their food. ...

To me, the Buddha and his disciples are not beggars. They do not beg for anything. They go around and collect foods that are respectfully offered by lay people. By doing this, they create opportunities for lay people to make great merits and have a chance to practice generosity. They, instead, are also the givers!
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.


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David N. Snyder
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:55 am



There is no need for them to get angry. They just need to see this:

Image

One can be a vegetarian and try to reduce the killing and suffering, but one must be realistic and understand that a 0% use of animals and animal by-products is virtually impossible.

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seeker242
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby seeker242 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:09 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:


There is no need for them to get angry. They just need to see this:

One can be a vegetarian and try to reduce the killing and suffering, but one must be realistic and understand that a 0% use of animals and animal by-products is virtually impossible.


I like this version better. :D

Image

chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby chownah » Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:35 pm

Hard to be an organic farmer and not use that famous cow by-product manure. It is possible though and I am actually working on developing the system to do this at my small farm.

Since most organic farmers use manure does this mean that vegans should eat chemically fertilized vegetables?
chownah

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David N. Snyder
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:38 pm

seeker242 wrote:
I like this version better. :D


:thumbsup: I like that one too. That is good.

I didn't notice if marshmallows were on those lists. Almost all marshmallows contain animal gelatin, but I have found some vegan ones at health food stores, Trader Joe's, Whole Foods, etc.

chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby chownah » Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:38 pm

chownah wrote:Hard to be an organic farmer and not use that famous cow by-product manure. It is possible though and I am actually working on developing the system to do this at my small farm.

Since most organic farmers use manure does this mean that vegans should eat chemically fertilized vegetables?
chownah

No responses to this so far. Do vegans know that virtually all organic produce is grown using animal manures? Certainly it is possible to grow produce without animal manures but it is a much more difficult thing to accomplish and substantially increases the labor required. I think that unless one grows one's own produce one is unlikely to find produce which is grown without animal manures. I may be wrong on this as I have not contacted any organic growers anywhere but I have been an organic grower myself for many decades and have seen how ubiquitous the use of animal manure is in organic growing. It is true that some (perhaps most) organic field crops can be grown effectively using green manuring....things like grains mostly....but when it comes to growing vegetables where a much richer soil is needed it takes a lot of work to cut a green manure crop and then concentrate it into a smaller area to develop the richness of the soil.
Again, I have not done a survey of organic produce available commercially. It would be interesting if people in the USA who know of any organic growers if they use animal manures or not.

Bottom line for vegans perhaps is should you eat organic if it was grown with animal manure or would it be better for vegans who are not sure to stick with chemically grown produce?
chownah

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:33 pm

At least this thread seems to be growing organically with the help of loads of bull manure.
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David N. Snyder
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:18 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:At least this thread seems to be growing organically with the help of loads of bull manure.


:) Lots of BS being spread around throughout this thread.

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David N. Snyder
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:24 am

chownah wrote: Certainly it is possible to grow produce without animal manures but it is a much more difficult thing to accomplish and substantially increases the labor required. I think that unless one grows one's own produce one is unlikely to find produce which is grown without animal manures. I may be wrong on this as I have not contacted any organic growers anywhere but I have been an organic grower myself for many decades and have seen how ubiquitous the use of animal manure is in organic growing. It is true that some (perhaps most) organic field crops can be grown effectively using green manuring....things like grains mostly....but when it comes to growing vegetables where a much richer soil is needed it takes a lot of work to cut a green manure crop and then concentrate it into a smaller area to develop the richness of the soil.
Again, I have not done a survey of organic produce available commercially. It would be interesting if people in the USA who know of any organic growers if they use animal manures or not.

Bottom line for vegans perhaps is should you eat organic if it was grown with animal manure or would it be better for vegans who are not sure to stick with chemically grown produce?
chownah


Yes, apparently there is a way to grow without using manure, but not sure how widespread that use is. You make a good point that vegans who like to use no animals or animal by-products may actually be using some with the way their vegetables are grown. I know they don't like to use leather, eggs, cosmetics tested on animals, other products containing animal by-products, so I wonder how many of them realize that their vegetables are grown with manure?

In a (theoretical) lacto-ovo vegetarian world, there would be no issue as long as cheese and dairy product consumption remained as it is now, there would be plenty of manure from the dairy cows. For a (theoretical) vegan world, there might be a problem or crops could be grown without manure but I assume the cost would be much higher.

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Stiphan
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Stiphan » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:10 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

My approach is actually similar to that of the Sangha... I'll eat meat if it's given to me, but I won't request it or purchase it etc. My wife knows that my preference is vegetarian, but I don't expect her to go making separate meals just for me when she does the cooking. I also have a "well, you can't bring it back to life now" mentality when at barbecues, parties, functions, group dinners etc.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Paul,

What a wonderful attitude!

I recently became a vegetarian (more than a month ago). I thought about going vegan, too.

I have done very well so far, and only one slip up a few days ago when I bought myself a burger. I never knew I can do without meat, but it seems it's easy.

But when I saw your post above, I thought that that wouldn't be a bad idea to observe. Because if someone offered me something (for food), I would offend them if I refuse. I think I'm going to do the same.

justindesilva
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby justindesilva » Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:42 pm

After going through this thread and listening to what Lord budda advised the monks to eat meat if it is not killed by his own self or if it is not killed meant by others for his self and ................, I started been a non vegetarian with such principles as advised by lord budda as presented by so called priests today.
I realised that I was slowly getting dragged in to the taste of meat and fish. Greed for taste.
I now have reverted been a vegetarian so that I can maintain non greed for taste. This helps meditation too.
With metta.

form
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby form » Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:13 pm

Bhutan do not slaughter animals, but outsourced the slaughtering to India.

One of my Buddhist friend like to eat crab, he told me when he goes to a restaurant selling live crabs that customer can pick to be cooked, he made sure he is not the one ordering and choosing the crabs.


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