the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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beeblebrox
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by beeblebrox » Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:16 am

Hi Chownah,

I apologize for trying to say that your argument was a perversion on someone's intention.

:anjali:

chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah » Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:11 pm

Beeblebrox,
Thank you for offering the apology which I accept with gratitude for the graciousness with which it was offered.
chownah

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Mkoll
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Mkoll » Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:20 pm

It seems our taste buds can get used to eating differently. I've found this to be true in my own experience on both ends of the like/dislike spectrum.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder » Sun Jun 29, 2014 2:23 pm

Spiny: I think generally people are just stating their opinions on a question of Buddhist ethics. I wonder if the perception of "lecturing" occurs when others don't like those opinions?
What you say may be true for some, but in general from my experience, at least in the The Western Cultures, it is the idea of "The Rules of Debate", which place us in the position of adversaries. The conversation turns from "sharing" what we do to live and how we have learned to live, and letting others in on our personal perspectives to "fencing", where there can only be winners, losers and judges. Hubris becomes our armor and passive aggressiveness, overt aggression, character smearing, and ballistic ad hominem our dueling weapons.

Ironically, none of us are morally superior when it comes to surviving by ingesting nutrients. :console: We each for our karmic benefit or detriment have an obligation to understand and decide what to consume for the sake of our samsaric survival and decide which form of karmic consequences to accept as a consequence of doing so. Of course we can choose to starve as others have already pointed out. Not my path, though. "Me Tarzan! You Jain?"
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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Mkoll
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Mkoll » Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:04 pm

Ron-The-Elder wrote:\Ironically, none of us are morally superior when it comes to surviving by ingesting nutrients. :console: We each for our karmic benefit or detriment have an obligation to understand and decide what to consume for the sake of our samsaric survival and decide which form of karmic consequences to accept as a consequence of doing so. Of course we can choose to starve as others have already pointed out. Not my path, though. "Me Tarzan! You Jain?"
I agree that there's no point in judging others for meat-eating. It's their prerogative, their kamma. I'm just providing reasons for rethinking that habit. Food for thought, if you will. :P

To me, the focus is not one person being morally superior to another. Rather, the focus is kamma and compassion, as you've said. By avoiding the eating of flesh, I think one sows seeds of harmlessness for other beings in future lives and gains the fruits thereof.
MN 135 wrote:The Blessed One said: "There is the case, student, where a woman or man is a killer of living beings, brutal, bloody-handed, given to killing & slaying, showing no mercy to living beings. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, hell. If, on the break-up of the body, after death — instead of reappearing in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, hell — he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is short-lived wherever reborn. This is the way leading to a short life: to be a killer of living beings, brutal, bloody-handed, given to killing & slaying, showing no mercy to living beings.

...

"There is the case where a woman or man is one who harms beings with his/her fists, with clods, with sticks, or with knives. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in the plane of deprivation... If instead he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is sickly wherever reborn. This is the way leading to sickliness: to be one who harms beings with one's fists, with clods, with sticks, or with knives.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah » Mon Jun 30, 2014 2:13 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
But we all have choices. I wouldn't want to contribute even in a small way to all the suffering involved in the meat industry in general and slaugherhouses in particular.
Some people who feel the way you do don't purchase milk or milk products because clearly in purchasing them one is contributing to the meat industry and slaughterhouses in a small way.
chownah

Dinsdale
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:21 am

chownah wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
But we all have choices. I wouldn't want to contribute even in a small way to all the suffering involved in the meat industry in general and slaugherhouses in particular.
Some people who feel the way you do don't purchase milk or milk products because clearly in purchasing them one is contributing to the meat industry and slaughterhouses in a small way.
chownah
Yes, true. But again, most of us have a choice about what the kind of food we buy. We can't do everything, but we can do something.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Dinsdale
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:27 am

Ron-The-Elder wrote: Hubris becomes our armor and passive aggressiveness, overt aggression, character smearing, and ballistic ad hominem our dueling weapons.
Yes, that can be a problem when controversial topics are being discussed. But IMO the answer is to be mindful of our debating style, not to ban controversial topics or suppress discussion.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lyndon taylor » Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:10 pm

On this forum I am very thankful we have a balance of meat eaters and vegetarians contributing, on another forum I browse, the vehement meat eaters run the show, call for the topic to be banned, and the moderators step in and ban the vegetarians from saying anything, so much for freedom of expression!! (there not here) They also have a thread where everyone calls for moderate drinking alcohol, and no end of rudeness to anyone that says you shouldn't drink. Seems like some other forums stop being Buddhist forums, and simply become people claiming to be buddhist forums!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

Dinsdale
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:36 am

lyndon taylor wrote:On this forum I am very thankful we have a balance of meat eaters and vegetarians contributing, on another forum I browse, the vehement meat eaters run the show, call for the topic to be banned, and the moderators step in and ban the vegetarians from saying anything, so much for freedom of expression!! (there not here) They also have a thread where everyone calls for moderate drinking alcohol, and no end of rudeness to anyone that says you shouldn't drink. Seems like some other forums stop being Buddhist forums, and simply become people claiming to be buddhist forums!!
It takes all sorts I guess. ;)
Buddha save me from new-agers!

walkart
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by walkart » Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:27 am

lyndon taylor wrote:On this forum I am very thankful we have a balance of meat eaters and vegetarians contributing, on another forum I browse, the vehement meat eaters run the show, call for the topic to be banned, and the moderators step in and ban the vegetarians from saying anything, so much for freedom of expression!! (there not here) They also have a thread where everyone calls for moderate drinking alcohol, and no end of rudeness to anyone that says you shouldn't drink. Seems like some other forums stop being Buddhist forums, and simply become people claiming to be buddhist forums!!
I was banned on some buddhist forum because i was in contradiction with some bhikkhus who said that killing for self defence and during the war its ok, that muslims must be eradicated, that HHDL was à b*** and that when some bhikkhu buy meat with money its ok too...

LXNDR
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by LXNDR » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:46 pm

walkart wrote: I was banned on some buddhist forum because i was in contradiction with some bhikkhus who said that killing for self defence and during the war its ok, that muslims must be eradicated, that HHDL was à b*** and that when some bhikkhu buy meat with money its ok too...
bhikk who? :smile:

walkart
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by walkart » Tue Jul 01, 2014 2:12 pm

LXNDR wrote:
walkart wrote: I was banned on some buddhist forum because i was in contradiction with some bhikkhus who said that killing for self defence and during the war its ok, that muslims must be eradicated, that HHDL was à b*** and that when some bhikkhu buy meat with money its ok too...
bhikk who? :smile:
Good question )

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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder » Thu Jul 03, 2014 10:22 am

Bhikk-whooooo?

Image

A truly wise monk? :focus:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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cooran
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by cooran » Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:18 pm

Interesting research - but what does it mean for Vegans??

Plants can hear themselves being eaten:
http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-an ... eing-eaten

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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