the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah » Sat Jun 28, 2014 2:56 am

LXNDR wrote:
chownah wrote:" Working in a slaughterhouse must be a horribly soul-destroying job."

Life is a slaughterhouse. Life exists in its diverse forms because life feeds on life to recycle the effort expended in assembling biological chemicals. This is the way life really is. You are the result of life feeding on life and everyday you and your waste products are being eaten.....you are being eaten alive .....life is a slaughter house.
chownah
life is jungle, but not slaughterhouse i.e. extermination camp
I see you disagree with my post and propose that life is a jungle. Can you explain how you see the idea of a jungle as being more appropriate than a slaughterhouse?
chownah

LXNDR
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by LXNDR » Sat Jun 28, 2014 7:13 am

chownah wrote: I see you disagree with my post and propose that life is a jungle. Can you explain how you see the idea of a jungle as being more appropriate than a slaughterhouse?
chownah
there's freedom in the jungle, everyone is given a chance to escape death if they're smart, skillful, strong and resilient enough
in the extermination camp the death is inescapable and sure regardless of one's personal qualities and abilities just because of the lack of freedom, nobody goes out alive
this is as far as struggle for survival and competition between forms of life are concerned

on a larger scale however life on the Earth is indeed a slaughterhouse in a sense that everyone is sure to die

Dinsdale
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:38 pm

chownah wrote:" Working in a slaughterhouse must be a horribly soul-destroying job."

Life is a slaughterhouse. Life exists in its diverse forms because life feeds on life to recycle the effort expended in assembling biological chemicals. This is the way life really is. You are the result of life feeding on life and everyday you and your waste products are being eaten.....you are being eaten alive .....life is a slaughter house.
chownah
But we all have choices. I wouldn't want to contribute even in a small way to all the suffering involved in the meat industry in general and slaugherhouses in particular.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah » Sun Jun 29, 2014 4:24 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
chownah wrote:" Working in a slaughterhouse must be a horribly soul-destroying job."

Life is a slaughterhouse. Life exists in its diverse forms because life feeds on life to recycle the effort expended in assembling biological chemicals. This is the way life really is. You are the result of life feeding on life and everyday you and your waste products are being eaten.....you are being eaten alive .....life is a slaughter house.
chownah
But we all have choices. I wouldn't want to contribute even in a small way to all the suffering involved in the meat industry in general and slaugherhouses in particular.
Then don't work in those industries and don't buy anything from any store that sells meat because in shopping there you are supporting the meat industry.
chownah

Dinsdale
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:29 am

chownah wrote: Then don't work in those industries and don't buy anything from any store that sells meat because in shopping there you are supporting the meat industry.
chownah
My local supermarket has plenty of non-meat products, so I choose to buy those rather than meat products.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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beeblebrox
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by beeblebrox » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:35 am

chownah wrote: Then don't work in those industries and don't buy anything from any store that sells meat because in shopping there you are supporting the meat industry.
chownah
Hi Chownah,

I don't buy meat. It's that simple. You don't need to try pervert it into something else.

:anjali:

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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:38 am

"... don't work in those industries and don't buy anything from any store that sells meat because in shopping there you are supporting the meat industry. chownah
There is nothing morally wrong with eating meat, per se, aside from the resulting health issues (cardio-vascular disease, cancer, viral and bacterial infections), which are inordinate. It is the manner in which the meat is "harvested" for nutritional needs, which determines good or evil kamma.

It all goes back to the first precept: "Cause no harm to sentient beings." For example: Killing a living sentient being causes harm vs. scraping up a dead being from the roadway, skinning it, grinding it up and making sausage, cooking it and eating it causes no harm except for the medical issues already mentioned. Eating animals that die of old age, or which burn to death in a fire, which you did not intentionally cause is also free of evil karmic debt, because there was no intention to cause harm.

Waiting at the bottom of cliffs ending above the sea during the annual lemming migrations seems like another way to harvest fresh, nutritious meat. :popcorn:

But then we have to consider the second precept: "Take not that, which has not been freely given."

.....Are fruits, seeds, and stalks of plants freely given, or does stealing them from plants prevent natural plant reproduction? ( I could honestly argue either case.)

:coffee: I have always wondered: "Does standard vegan hubris lead to heavenly realms, or hell realms?" :shrug:

And finally: "Do threads like this ever end?" :shrug:
Last edited by Ron-The-Elder on Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Dinsdale
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:40 am

Ron-The-Elder wrote:Eating animals that die of old age, or which burn to death in a fire, which you did not intentionally cause is also free of evil karmic debt, because there was no intention to cause harm.
So how do you view deciding to buy meat in a supermarket when there are non-meat options available?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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beeblebrox
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by beeblebrox » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:44 am

Ron-The-Elder wrote: And finally: "Do threads like this ever end?"
Hi Ron,

Yes. When will it end?

Also, where do you see the hubris?

:anjali:
Last edited by beeblebrox on Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:46 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
Ron-The-Elder wrote:Eating animals that die of old age, or which burn to death in a fire, which you did not intentionally cause is also free of evil karmic debt, because there was no intention to cause harm.

So how do you view deciding to buy meat in a supermarket when there are non-meat options available?
I see financially and materially supporting the slaughter of living beings to satisfy our nutritional needs as a violation of the first precept: "Cause no harm to sentient beings."
Last edited by Ron-The-Elder on Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:58 am

beeblebrox wrote:
Ron-The-Elder wrote: And finally: "Do threads like this ever end?"
Hi Ron,

Yes. When will it end?

Also, where do you see the hubris?

:anjali:
It seems to me that whenever we lecture other adults :soap: as to the moral superiority of our ways, while at the same time condemning or labeling their ways as inferior, even though we may in fact be right and just in our decisions as to how to live our lives , we should consider if we are guilty of demonstrating excessive pride, excessive self-confidence and arrogance, which behaviors define "hubris".
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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beeblebrox
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by beeblebrox » Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:13 am

Hi Ron,

Is that limited to the vegans, in this thread?

:anjali:

Dinsdale
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:30 am

Ron-The-Elder wrote: It seems to me that whenever we lecture other adults :soap: as to the moral superiority of our ways, while at the same time condemning or labeling their ways as inferior, even though we may in fact be right and just in our decisions as to how to live our lives , we should consider if we are guilty of demonstrating excessive pride, excessive self-confidence and arrogance, which behaviors define "hubris".
I think generally people are just stating their opinions on a question of Buddhist ethics. I wonder if the perception of "lecturing" occurs when others don't like those opinions?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Mkoll
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Mkoll » Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:38 am

Ron-The-Elder wrote:.....Are fruits, seeds, and stalks of plants freely given, or does stealing them from plants prevent natural plant reproduction? ( I could honestly argue either case.)
I'm sorry but if you want to go that far, then it follows we shouldn't be eating anything because no matter what we eat we will be killing someething or preventing something from living. If that were the case, then we should all just starve to death so we don't hurt anything.

I think the Jains have a view that starving to death to prevent harming other beings is the best spiritual practice. Admirable, but I wouldn't call that wise. Don't take my word for it though, I'm not sure if that's actually true in their case.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah » Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:02 am

beeblebrox wrote:
chownah wrote: Then don't work in those industries and don't buy anything from any store that sells meat because in shopping there you are supporting the meat industry.
chownah
Hi Chownah,

I don't buy meat. It's that simple. You don't need to try pervert it into something else.

:anjali:
I have no idea what it is that I am accused of trying to pervert. Spiny Norman said he didn't want to contribute in even a small way to the meat industry or slaughter house business so I offered what seemed like a way to avoid making that contribution......where does this pervert thing come in?
chownah

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