the great vegetarian debate

[Spiny O'Norman]

The metta sutta does not proscribe the eating of meat.

I am confused but to me this sounds like somewhat narrow and legalistic reading of

As a mother would risk her life to protect her child, her only child, even so should one cultivate a limitless heart with regard to all beings.

The attitude we are urged to have towards all beings is that of a mother towards her only child. And not eating them is already beyond this?

I agree. It's like arguing that it's OK to buy meat from a supermarket because technically it doesn't breach the 3-fold rule.

Spiny

[Ben]

Do we take the Metta Sutta seriously?
Spiny

The metta sutta does not proscribe the eating of meat.
Just as narcissism is not defined by the eating of meat.

I am confused but to me this sounds like somewhat narrow and legalistic reading of

As a mother would risk her life to protect her child, her only child, even so should one cultivate a limitless heart with regard to all beings.

The attitude we are urged to have towards all beings is that of a mother towards her only child. And not eating them is already beyond this?

Dan, one cannot bring a being back to life by not eating it.

[Spiny O'Norman]

Dan, one cannot bring a being back to life by not eating it.

But you can cause a being to be killed by deciding you want to eat meat.

Spiny

[PeterB]

The metta sutta does not proscribe the eating of meat.

I am confused but to me this sounds like somewhat narrow and legalistic reading of

As a mother would risk her life to protect her child, her only child, even so should one cultivate a limitless heart with regard to all beings.

The attitude we are urged to have towards all beings is that of a mother towards her only child. And not eating them is already beyond this?

I agree. It's like arguing that it's OK to buy meat from a supermarket because technically it doesn't breach the 3-fold rule.

Spiny

And it doesnt. Now what ? Change religion ? Picket you local Wat ?
The fact is that there are a few newcomers, and perhaps even a few older people who have not yet reflected on the issue .
Most established Dhamma followers will have thought he issue through and reached a conclusion.
That conclusion needs to be respected even if differs from our own.
There are no children (or very few ) among the membership.
Constantly hectoring and bullying about any single issue is not going to influence anyone ..it could even cause an entrenchment of views.
Such behaviour might address some personal psychological need, but is not an adult way to do business.
The late Bernard Levin once wrote a very perceptive piece about the self defeating behaviour of the S.I.F. ( single issue fanatic )...the person that one ducks into a metaphorical doorway to avoid.

[Ben]

Dan, one cannot bring a being back to life by not eating it.

But you can cause a being to be killed by deciding you want to eat meat.

Spiny

Please explain how I cause a being to be killed by masticating a piece of chicken.

[andre9999]

Please explain how I cause a being to be killed by masticating a piece of chicken.

By economically reducing demand, you'll likely reduce supply over time. If your whole neighborhood immediately becomes vegan, there's probably a nearby animal farm or two that's going to shutdown because no one buys their product. That said, a single person not eating meat won't have much effect considering how much food is thrown away.

[Spiny O'Norman]

The late Bernard Levin once wrote a very perceptive piece about the self defeating behaviour of the S.I.F. ( single issue fanatic )...the person that one ducks into a metaphorical doorway to avoid.

So now those of us who are troubled by the ethics of meat-eating are "single issue fanatics"? A classic ad hom attack.

Spiny

[Ben]

Please explain how I cause a being to be killed by masticating a piece of chicken.

By economically reducing demand, you'll likely reduce supply over time. If your whole neighborhood immediately becomes vegan, there's probably a nearby animal farm or two that's going to shutdown because no one buys their product. That said, a single person not eating meat won't have much effect considering how much food is thrown away.

Thanks Andre,

I think its important to re-examine our own views and hence my questions here (and there).
Interestingly, there was an issue in this country not long ago with regards to live cattle exports to Indonesia. Footage surfaced of indonesian slaughterhouse pracitces, via Animals Australia, and was aired on national television. Virtually overnight public support for a ban of live cattle exports became so great that the Govt immediately suspended the live cattle trade to Indonesia. And according to some reports, the number of people who switched to vegetarianism spiked markedly. Which was great. However, what then happened was another animal welfare issue which was that the hundreds of thousands of cattle that were ready to be loaded onto ships to be taken to indonesia started to starve. Sometimes intentions have unforseen consequences. Which I am sure, you'll agree.

I don't have a problem with vegetarianism or veganism, but its not Dhamma. And given the acute situation in the Horn of Africa where tens of millions of people are facing starvation, the discussion on whether vegetarianism is more Dhammic than non-vegetarianism I think is a bit unseemly.
kind regards
Ben

[Jhana4]

Every so often some food writer or nu age type gives the juvenile argument that there is a pact between animals and people where animals agree to be slaughtered.

I always tell those people, if that is true why do those animals struggle when slaughter is iminenent and why do they try to run away?

article with the video

phpBB .

[PeterB]

The late Bernard Levin once wrote a very perceptive piece about the self defeating behaviour of the S.I.F. ( single issue fanatic )...the person that one ducks into a metaphorical doorway to avoid.

So now those of us who are troubled by the ethics of meat-eating are "single issue fanatics"? A classic ad hom attack.

Spiny

There are many people who are troubled by the ethics of meat eating but whose eyes are untainted by the gleam of the SIF.

[PeterB]

Every so often some food writer or nu age type gives the juvenile argument that there is a pact between animals and people where animals agree to be slaughtered.

I always tell those people, if that is true why do those animals struggle when slaughter is iminenent and why do they try to run away?

article with the video

phpBB .

Ever come across that view on this forum, or any other Buddhist forum ?

[chownah]

Every so often some food writer or nu age type gives the juvenile argument that there is a pact between animals and people where animals agree to be slaughtered.

Yeah!!! That's about as crazy as those people who think there is a social contract which means that people are morally obligated to follow laws......where do people get these crazy ideas?

I drew up a pact with a slaugher agreement clause but couldn't get the cows to sign it....I couldn't tell if it was because they objected to the clause or if they couldn't hold the pen.
chownah

[andre9999]

Interestingly, there was an issue in this country not long ago with regards to live cattle exports to Indonesia. Footage surfaced of indonesian slaughterhouse pracitces, via Animals Australia, and was aired on national television. Virtually overnight public support for a ban of live cattle exports became so great that the Govt immediately suspended the live cattle trade to Indonesia. And according to some reports, the number of people who switched to vegetarianism spiked markedly. Which was great. However, what then happened was another animal welfare issue which was that the hundreds of thousands of cattle that were ready to be loaded onto ships to be taken to indonesia started to starve. Sometimes intentions have unforseen consequences. Which I am sure, you'll agree.

In a perfect system (obviously not realistic) that would only happen once, then the producer would not raise another group of animals to slaughter since they know they could not make money selling it. While I do eat meat, the reason I prefer not eating meat is so that those animals aren't being killed because of my choices, however small. I didn't starve those animals... but if I eat beef, in a small way I convince that farmer that s/he should raise more beef cattle to sell for slaughter.

I don't have a problem with vegetarianism or veganism, but its not Dhamma.

I agree, but I do feel that it's in the spirit of Dhamma and would personally rather lean that way.

And given the acute situation in the Horn of Africa where tens of millions of people are facing starvation, the discussion on whether vegetarianism is more Dhammic than non-vegetarianism I think is a bit unseemly.

I don't see how the current famine is related to discussing Buddhism/vegetarianism on the internet. Is that what we're discussing here?

[daverupa]

if I eat beef, in a small way I convince that farmer that s/he should raise more beef cattle to sell for slaughter

I want to plant a flag on the fact that this argument, to be consistent, must be applied universally such that the only cogent position which results is Veganism. Therefore, a committed vegetarian who agrees with the quote, above, will be at fault for hypocrisy at worst, inconsistency at best.

The economic connection between consumption of meat and an increase in demand is even more interesting as anyone who agrees with this point must remain childless to be consistent in the principle, given that another human birth results in additional planetary burden.

Another point is that physical fitness which begins to require larger amounts of food to sustain is a wholly problematic practice.

So there are many more variables here than are often considered, and the ones that are considered are often not taken to their logically necessary ends.

Childless, slightly emaciated vegans. Sounds rather Jain; if we drop the "vegan" part, it sounds rather like the body form heralded as best for Buddhist monastics. I find the fact that this dietary reference makes all the difference to be worth noting.

[Jhana4]

Survey: 21% of U.S. college students limit meat consumption
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