Do Metta, Go to to Hell

[Jhana4]

Here, monks, some person dwells pervading one quarter with a mind imbued with loving-kindness, likewise the second quarter, the third, and the fourth. Thus above, below, across and everywhere, and to all as to himself, he dwells pervading the entire world with a mind imbued with loving-kindness, vast, exalted, measureless, without hostility, without ill will. He relishes it, takes a liking to it and is thrilled by it. If he is firm in it, resolves upon it, often dwells in it, and has not lost it when he dies, he is reborn in companionship with the devas of Brahma company. The lifespan of those devas is an eon. The worldling remains there all his life, and when he completes the entire lifespan of those devas, he goes to hell, to the animal realm, and to the domain of spirits. But the Blessed One's disciple remains there all his life, and when he has completed the entire lifespan of those devas, he attains final Nibbana in that very same state of existence. This is the difference, the disparity, the distinction between the instructed noble disciple and the uninstructed worldling, that is, with regard to destination and rebirth.


AN 4:125; 128-29
"In the Buddha's Words" edited and introduced by Bhikkhu Bodhi. Pages 216 - 218. ISBN 0-86171-491-1

I could interpolate the end of this sutta to mean something like "without instruction that clinging will undo all spiritual progress and lead to a future, lessened existence", but I am disappointed that I have to with this sutta and that this sutta states that the diminished existence after having peaked out with the Brahma Viharas is not lesser existence, but a hell.

[Lazy_eye]

I could interpolate the end of this sutta to mean something like "without instruction that clinging will undo all spiritual progress and lead to a future, lessened existence", but I am disappointed that I have to with this sutta and that this sutta states that the diminished existence after having peaked out with the Brahma Viharas is not lesser existence, but a hell.

But don't forget there is an eon among the devas first!

At issue here, I guess, are the drawbacks of samsara. Through virtue, it's possible to attain the heavens -- but the wheel keeps spinning, and eventually you cycle back into the lower realms when your celestial merit is exhausted. Not to mention by that time you have probably forgotten all about loving-kindness and are dangerously engrossed in heavenly delights.

[Mawkish1983]

by that time you have probably forgotten all about loving-kindness and are dangerously engrossed in heavenly delights.

Even within the human realm, that is very true.

[daverupa]

Here, monks, some person dwells pervading one quarter with a mind imbued with loving-kindness, likewise the second quarter, the third, and the fourth. Thus above, below, across and everywhere, and to all as to himself, he dwells pervading the entire world with a mind imbued with loving-kindness, vast, exalted, measureless, without hostility, without ill will. He relishes it, takes a liking to it and is thrilled by it. If he is firm in it, resolves upon it, often dwells in it, and has not lost it when he dies, he is reborn in companionship with the devas of Brahma company. The lifespan of those devas is an eon. The worldling remains there all his life, and when he completes the entire lifespan of those devas, he goes to hell, to the animal realm, and to the domain of spirits. But the Blessed One's disciple remains there all his life, and when he has completed the entire lifespan of those devas, he attains final Nibbana in that very same state of existence. This is the difference, the disparity, the distinction between the instructed noble disciple and the uninstructed worldling, that is, with regard to destination and rebirth.


AN 4:125; 128-29
"In the Buddha's Words" edited and introduced by Bhikkhu Bodhi. Pages 216 - 218. ISBN 0-86171-491-1

I could interpolate the end of this sutta to mean something like "without instruction that clinging will undo all spiritual progress and lead to a future, lessened existence", but I am disappointed that I have to with this sutta and that this sutta states that the diminished existence after having peaked out with the Brahma Viharas is not lesser existence, but a hell.

You forgot to read the portion underlined. Your interpolation is already explicit.

[Jhana4]

So if a person enjoys doing metta, it is a transformed into a "sin", which will paid for later by going to hell, after they are done with a life deva realm? Your interpolation is not much better than my interpretation.

[daverupa]

So if a person enjoys doing metta, it is a transformed into a "sin", which will paid for later by going to hell, after they are done with a life deva realm? Your interpolation is not much better than my interpretation.

It isn't "my" interpolation, it's right there in the text. It also says that only worldings will end up in a hell realm, eventually; ariyan disciples cannot end up in such a place. It isn't a bum rap, it's simply how samsara operates. You go up, then you go down. The Buddha says, instead, that to go out you really ought to practice the Path, not simply metta.

[ground]

So if a person enjoys doing metta, it is a transformed into a "sin", which will paid for later by going to hell, after they are done with a life deva realm?

It has nothing to do with christian "sin".

The crucial difference is "worldling" or not.


kind regards

[Akuma]

So if a person enjoys doing metta, it is a transformed into a "sin", which will paid for later by going to hell, after they are done with a life deva realm?

Going to hell afterwards is said to occur because the beings in heaven eat up much good karma for their existence and dont create much new; followingly theres a lack of good karma and they land in hell. The means that brought the being into heaven have nothing to do with that.

[befriend]

i always thought it meant, you COULD go to hell after you spend time in the brahma realms from doing metta. the point that the author is making is that its possible to go to hell after being in a brahma realm. it would be nice to hear a monks take on this.

[alan]

J4,
Are you sure you understand the quote you reference?
You may be making mistaken assumptions.

[Jhana4]

I understand what you are saying, but given that these suttas were recited one at a time from itinerants I don't think it is fair to bolster the meaning of the suttas to the positive by squaring it with other works or interpolation. On its own, the sutta basically says that practicing the Brahma Viharas will get you some rewards, which will wear off and put you into an existence of intense suffering unless you become one of the Buddha's students.

[Dan74]

I understand what you are saying, but given that these suttas were recited one at a time from itinerants I don't think it is fair to bolster the meaning of the suttas to the positive by squaring it with other works or interpolation. On its own, the sutta basically says that practicing the Brahma Viharas will get you some rewards, which will wear off and put you into an existence of intense suffering unless you become one of the Buddha's students.

I think this is right because in the presence of clinging, attachment and identification, even to positive states of mind and action, delusion has still not been uprooted. So one continues to transmigrate... It's not harsh at all, but very natural and the people involved are conditioning their becoming themselves through their mind states.

It's worth remembering that the hells themselves are no more real than this realm - one can leave at any time when one wakes up to this fact though usually our kamma propels us forward on the well-trodden path...

[alan]

Seriously misguided interpretation, J4. where did you even get this idea?

[MidGe]

I was really shocked by my initial understanding of the subject of this thread!

Of course on reading the suttas, there is absolutely nothing shocking about it at all from my viewpoint. Kammic accumulation is huge over so many lifetimes, occurring since a beginning to it cannot be found, so far away it is. I understand that most worldlings have at least some (probably much) kammic accumulation that would send them to those less than desirable realms. In fact I use this as a motivator to attempt to reach stream-entry, knowing that, circumstances being right, some opportunity may arise for the result of some kamma to come into effect such that I may be back to these realms.

I guess I don't read an implication that Metta is the cause of ending up in the disfavourable realms. My own understanding of this sutta is that a non-worldling (aryans) will not end up in those realms and that worldlings may even after having spent time in brahma spheres, or elsewhere. Nothing more, nothing less.

[daverupa]

My own understanding of this sutta is that a non-worldling (aryans) will not end up in those realms and that worldlings may even after having spent time in brahma spheres, or elsewhere. Nothing more, nothing less.