Eviction Notice: Brown Recluse

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Dexing
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Eviction Notice: Brown Recluse

Post by Dexing » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:42 am

So my house seems to have an infestation of them as of late. A number have been spotted in the attic and basement, and recently on the second floor, where bedrooms are.

They are said to be non-aggressive and only bite when provoked (which may be accidental). I usually leave insects alone in the house. If they aren't a pest, I don't care. We both mind our own business. They don't even have to pay rent. But it's really dangerous with the brown recluse, as their poison can cause major damage to people.

So my question is how to evict them without incident. I don't want to use pesticides or squash them on site. But if there are so many of them, the danger level in my own home increases. What are the solutions?

:namaste:

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Kim OHara
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Re: Eviction Notice: Brown Recluse

Post by Kim OHara » Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:15 am

Telling us what on earth a 'brown recluse' is might help ... the first thought that came to my mind was a Franciscan monk, but that is probably not who or what you mean.

:namaste:
Kim

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bodom
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Re: Eviction Notice: Brown Recluse

Post by bodom » Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:20 pm

Brown recluse spider
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_recluse_spider" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

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Ben
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Re: Eviction Notice: Brown Recluse

Post by Ben » Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:01 pm

What I use here in Australia to capture spiders is a wide-mouthed jar and a sheet of stiff card.
Place the mouth of the jar over the spider and then slide the card under the mouth of the jar and under the spider.
Lift the jar and taking care to keep the card against the mouth of the jar.
Take outside and release.

I should point out that the technique works best if the spider is against a flat surface.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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Monkey Mind
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Re: Eviction Notice: Brown Recluse

Post by Monkey Mind » Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:10 pm

Kim O'Hara wrote:Telling us what on earth a 'brown recluse' is might help ... the first thought that came to my mind was a Franciscan monk, but that is probably not who or what you mean.

:namaste:
Kim
:clap: best laugh all week, thank you!
"As I am, so are others;
as others are, so am I."
Having thus identified self and others,
harm no one nor have them harmed.

Sutta Nipāta 3.710

santa100
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Re: Eviction Notice: Brown Recluse

Post by santa100 » Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:15 pm

Some plants are natural spider repellants. Try the link below. Good luck..

http://www.ehow.com/how_4826314_natural ... iders.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dexing
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Re: Eviction Notice: Brown Recluse

Post by Dexing » Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:54 pm

Hi Ben, Thanks for the suggestion, but the problem is really with an "infestation" of them. I don't know if catching and releasing them all will be a feasible option. But worth doing should I encounter them in the short term.

Santa, great article! A natural repellent will be great in the long term! Eucalyptus leaves or branches, hmm.....

:namaste:

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tiltbillings
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Re: Eviction Notice: Brown Recluse

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:26 pm

Dexing wrote:So my house seems to have an infestation of them as of late. A number have been spotted in the attic and basement, and recently on the second floor, where bedrooms are.

They are said to be non-aggressive and only bite when provoked (which may be accidental). I usually leave insects alone in the house. If they aren't a pest, I don't care. We both mind our own business. They don't even have to pay rent. But it's really dangerous with the brown recluse, as their poison can cause major damage to people.

So my question is how to evict them without incident. I don't want to use pesticides or squash them on site. But if there are so many of them, the danger level in my own home increases. What are the solutions?

:namaste:
You have kids in your home, pets?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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bodom
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Re: Eviction Notice: Brown Recluse

Post by bodom » Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:34 pm

There has been an almost epidemic here in the USA with bed bugs making a huge resurgence. I recently had to have my apartment fumigated to solve the problem. I did not want to have to take these measures, (usually if I seen any I would just throw them outside) but with me, my wife and two young children being bitten every night I really had no choice. My family's health was top priority. You do what is best for you and your family. You can look into non harmful alternatives but if there are none do what you need to do and take comfort in the fact that you did not want to have to kill but it was in the best interest of you and your family.

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

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cooran
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Re: Eviction Notice: Brown Recluse

Post by cooran » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:18 pm

Hello bodom, all,

Yes, sometimes difficult decisions have to be made. I can remember assisting in killing a poisonous red-bellied black snake in our toilet area when I had very young childre. But there are still kammic effects.

There isn’t any wiggle room in Buddhism … the deliberate knowing killing another being is just that, and will have its results. The mosquito in this re-becoming, may well have been a human in a previous birth….

Getting The Message … Thanissaro Bhikkhu
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ssage.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Vipaka Sutta … Results
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


And a little more:

I think it is essential to have a definition of exactly what a sentient being is within Buddhism.

Someone said that sentient beings are those who are capable of experiencing suffering (Dukkha), that if a being seeks to avoid a blow, it is sentient

So a kangaroo seeking to get out of the spotlight of a night shooter, is seeking to avoid suffering (pain of being wounded/killed). The snails on the paths at my workplace seeking to (very slowly) avoid the shoes of the passers-by are seeking to avoid suffering (pain of being squashed). The fear they feel is also suffering. This would fit with a Tibetan teachings which says that sentient beings are all beings that have mind, and mind is found in all beings that breathe. I think this would cut out all bacteria, virus, and plants. One wonders about beings in other realms, like petas, devas etc (Do they breathe. can they feel a blow?)

In "An Introduction to Buddhist Ethics" Peter Harvey (p151)
'sentience, the ability to experience and to suffer, and the related ability, in this or a future life, to transcend suffering by attaining enlightenment'
and
'The flux of consciousness from a previous being is a necessary condition for the arising and development in the womb of a body (rupa) endowed with mental abilities which amount to sentience (nama): feeling, identification, volition, sensory stimulation and attention (S.II.3-4)'

With metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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bodom
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Re: Eviction Notice: Brown Recluse

Post by bodom » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:28 pm

Thanks Chris, this article from Dhammawiki may also be of interest to all:
Insects and pest control

The killing of insects as it relates to their size

Many Buddhists argue that the killing of insects is just as bad as the killing of a larger animal. And when looking at passages from the Metta Sutta and other discourses about the importance of not killing living beings, it appears they are correct. Killing living beings appears to be wrong in all cases, regardless of the motivations.

However, there does appear to be some differences in the weight of the negative kamma assigned to the killing of smaller beings as compared to larger beings and humans. The Vinaya makes one such distinction, considering murder an offense so serious as to require permanent expulsion from the Sangha (Parajika 3), while killing an animal is a far less serious offence (Pacittiya 62), on a par with insulting someone, idle chatter and having a non-regulation size sitting mat. This distinction is probably based on the idea that the intentions behind killing a fellow human would be markedly stronger and more intense than those behind killing an animal.

Each of us has probably noticed that we think differently about the death of a person, the death of a warm blooded animal and that of an insect. Likewise we probably notice a difference in how we felt if we were to kill a chicken and an ant. These feeling must be partly socially conditioned but whatever their cause they do affect our minds differently and therefore have different vipaka (kamma result). This may not be a fact but could be a possible explanation for the Vinaya’s (and most peoples') distinction between killing a human and an animal.

The Buddha may have allowed the monks and nuns to eat meat according the 3 fold rule, but did not allow them to eat certain meats such as the flesh of humans, elephants, horse, dog, snake, lion, tiger, leopard, bear, and hyena (Mahavagga VI.23.10-15) even if it was generously offered. This again shows a sort of hierarchy with humans at the top, followed by these royal animals (such as elephants and lions), then lower animals, and finally insects.

Based on the above points and teachings from the Buddha, there could arguably be a hierarchy such as the following:

Humans (a parajika offense requiring expulsion from the Order for killing a human)
Large, Royal animals, such as elephants, lions, tigers (not allowed to be eaten even if offered)
Smaller animals (their flesh may be eaten, if offered to monks, nuns)
Insects (building construction and farming allowed even though they may be killed indirectly)

There will be negative kamma associated with the killing of any animal, which includes insects, but it appears that the weight of the kamma will be lesser for insects.

Although the mind is a subtle and complex phenomena and its workings are difficult to plumb, the doctrine of kamma is all too often presented in the most naive and simplistic terms. For example, one often hears people say "If you kill you will... " (fill in the gap – be killed in your next life, be reborn as a worm, go to hell, etc.).Interestingly, although not surprisingly, the Buddha criticized such generalizations:

"If anyone were to say that just as a person does a deed, so is his experience is determined by it, and if this were true, then living the holy life would not be possible, there would be no opportunity for the overcoming of suffering. But if anyone were to say that a person does a deed that is to be experienced, so does he experience it, then living the holy life would be possible, there would be an opportunity for the ending of suffering. For instance, a small evil deed done by one person may be experienced here in this life or perhaps not at all. Now, what sort of person commits a small evil that takes him to hell? Take a person who is careless in the development of body, speech and mind. He has not developed wisdom, he is insignificant, he has not developed himself, his life is restricted, and he is miserable. Even a small evil deed may bring such a person to hell. Now, take the person who is careful in development of body, speech and mind, He has developed wisdom, he is not insignificant, he has developed himself, his life is unrestricted and he is immeasurable. For such a person, a small evil deed may be experienced here or perhaps not at all. Suppose someone throws a grain of salt into a little cup of water. That water would be undrinkable. And why? Because the amount of water is small. Now, suppose throws a grain salt in River Ganges. That water would not be undrinkable. And why? Because the amount of water is great" (Anguttara Nikaya I.249).

It appears that although negative kamma, the killing of insects would be like the salt in the River Ganges and not seriously lead to any significant negative results, especially if done in defense of your home and family. For example a person who kills termites, wasps, or poisonous insects that entered his home after attempts to remove them failed.
http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?tit ... st_control" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And interestingly enough, this article I just now came across from S. Dhammika:

The Kamma And Dhamma Of Killing Bed Bugs
http://sdhammika.blogspot.com/2010/03/k ... -bugs.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

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Kim OHara
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Re: Eviction Notice: Brown Recluse

Post by Kim OHara » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:31 pm

Monkey Mind wrote:
Kim O'Hara wrote:Telling us what on earth a 'brown recluse' is might help ... the first thought that came to my mind was a Franciscan monk, but that is probably not who or what you mean.

:namaste:
Kim
:clap: best laugh all week, thank you!
:bow:
Kim

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octathlon
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Re: Eviction Notice: Brown Recluse

Post by octathlon » Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:34 am

I immediately thought of the spider, not a monk. :lol:

We have them everywhere around here where I live (Kansas). I used to live in a rock house and they loved it there. I was bitten by one in the armpit area (it must have gotten into a coat). My entire armpit, arm down to the elbow, and side of my torso were beet red. I went to the doctor and was given prednisone. Fortunately I recovered fine but many people have horrible consequences (just google to see some). I had an exterminator come out and it took several visits before they were gone. I'm still paranoid and shake out any blankets, clothing or shoes that haven't been used for a while.

I still get them in the wood frame house I live in now, but not as often. My instinct has always been to kill them so they don't make more(!), though I have no problems with other kinds of spiders. However since I began practicing Buddhism I have struggled dealing with this one creature (well, and ants). Catching a brown recluse in a jar to take outside is scary! But since it's only one every once in a while, I have managed to do it a few times--- thinking to myself the whole time that I must be crazy.

Anyway, they are not just a nuisance but a threat to your health. Having an infestation of them is really not safe as I know from experience. I have a Brown Recluse first aid kit that I got online (Progeny Products). No idea how effective it is since I haven't had to use it, but something you might want to consider having on hand until the infestation is resolved.

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Goofaholix
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Re: Eviction Notice: Brown Recluse

Post by Goofaholix » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:16 am

Kim O'Hara wrote:Telling us what on earth a 'brown recluse' is might help ... the first thought that came to my mind was a Franciscan monk, but that is probably not who or what you mean.
It reads like some Theravadin monks are being chased off their monastery land.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

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Ben
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Re: Eviction Notice: Brown Recluse

Post by Ben » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:20 am

In Australia we're used to dealing with much larger varieties.

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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