Stem-cells

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Dhammanando
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Re: Stem-cells

Post by Dhammanando » Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:49 am

Hi Green,
green wrote:First and foremost, the only reason we are discussing this is because this is a forum...no Buddhist really wastes time on matters of Kamma or claims to understand it's working. Anyone who claims to have understood the workings of kamma as Buddha taught it, is incorrect.
Note that in the sutta that you then quote it is not kamma, but rather vipāka, that is designated acinteyya. The meaning is that determining whether such and such result was the ripening of this or that past action as beyond the scope of ratiocination. (That does not mean, however, that it is beyond all possible modes of cognising).
Now having said this, let us speculate... :smile:

When a doctor kills, or experiments with living beings -- he does create mixed kamma (some bad (he hurt beings), some good(to help save lives))

- How Dr.s kamma affects the medicine -- it can be good or bad.
The medicine is just inanimate rūpa. Only animated rūpa (i.e. the bodies of sentient beings) can be (partly) kamma-produced. In the Theravadin understanding inanimate rūpa, such as medicines, rocks, rivers etc. has no relationship with kamma whatsoever. This was a major point on which the Theravadins differed with other schools at the Third Council: the Theravadin list of things due to kamma was a great deal shorter than those of most other schools.
- a person who then takes this medicine -- can also be affected (serious side affects or not affected (lucky this time)
No. Kamma accumulates in the mental continua of living beings, not in external matter.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

green
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Re: Stem-cells

Post by green » Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:28 pm

Dhammanando wrote:Hi Green,
green wrote:First and foremost, the only reason we are discussing this is because this is a forum...no Buddhist really wastes time on matters of Kamma or claims to understand it's working. Anyone who claims to have understood the workings of kamma as Buddha taught it, is incorrect.
Note that in the sutta that you then quote it is not kamma, but rather vipāka, that is designated acinteyya. The meaning is that determining whether such and such result was the ripening of this or that past action as beyond the scope of ratiocination. (That does not mean, however, that it is beyond all possible modes of cognising).
Good morning (or evening depending on where you are) Bhante :anjali: :

Kamma and vipaka cannot be discussed independently. In this discussion we are indeed discussing vipaka, the result of different kamma of a dr. and a person who might be taking medicine.
Now having said this, let us speculate... :smile:

When a doctor kills, or experiments with living beings -- he does create mixed kamma (some bad (he hurt beings), some good(to help save lives))

- How Dr.s kamma affects the medicine -- it can be good or bad.
The medicine is just inanimate rūpa. Only animated rūpa (i.e. the bodies of sentient beings) can be (partly) kamma-produced. In the Theravadin understanding inanimate rūpa, such as medicines, rocks, rivers etc. has no relationship with kamma whatsoever. This was a major point on which the Theravadins differed with other schools at the Third Council: the Theravadin list of things due to kamma was a great deal shorter than those of most other schools.
Food/medicine is not inanimate rupa, these products are derived from sentient beings and many times tested on sentient beings. Drugs are mostly derived from plants, animal products which are further chemically isolated and refined (particularly modern drugs). And of course, here we are talking about the possibility of using drugs/chemicals derived from human embryos.
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/ ... ekey=52324" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Since medicine for the most part, is derived from sentient beings, it is subject to kamma vipaka interactions.

:anjali:

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Dhammanando
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Re: Stem-cells

Post by Dhammanando » Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:01 pm

Hi Green,
green wrote:Food/medicine is not inanimate rupa, these products are derived from sentient beings and many times tested on sentient beings.
I suggest you look up "inanimate" in a dictionary.

And I repeat my advice that you make a careful study of what is taught about kamma and its ripening in the Suttas and Abhidhamma, for you appear at the moment to be rather clueless about these things.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

green
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:25 am

Re: Stem-cells

Post by green » Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:07 pm

Dhammanando wrote:Hi Green,
green wrote:Food/medicine is not inanimate rupa, these products are derived from sentient beings and many times tested on sentient beings.
I suggest you look up "inanimate" in a dictionary.

And I repeat my advice that you make a careful study of what is taught about kamma and its ripening in the Suttas and Abhidhamma, for you appear at the moment to be rather clueless about these things.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
You have such a perfect understanding of kamma, I am astounded because clearly you have stated your argument so coherently that I am left speechless. :smile:

First you pronounced your argument that medicine is not sentient therefore not subject to kamma, when I showed you that drugs are derived from sentient beings, you are annoyed.

So are you saying, embryos and medicine derived from human embryos carries no kamma/vipaka?

Food too is considered medicine, is inanimate when we receive it and like food it is ingested, let us make a study of food and kammic interactions.

1)If I kill a turkey for a group of monastics, why won't the monastics eat it?-- Buddha states, meat in such an instance should not be eaten even if it's suspected that it's been killed for a monk/nun.
meat should not be eaten under three circumstances: when it is seen or heard or suspected (that a living being has been purposely slaughtered for the eater); these, Jivaka, are the three circumstances in which meat should not be eaten, Jivaka!
—Jivaka Sutta, MN 55
2)If I kill a turkey to feed the hungry "in general, to give in a supermarket" or give to charity, will you eat such a turkey?

Why is my intent of killing a turkey just for you affecting the turkey you are eating in the first instance, but not in the second? The meat is inanimate...it's dead.

People say the second instance is wrong because of the following passage:
Vanijja Sutta, AN 5:177 [2].

Monks, a lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison. These are the five types of business that a lay follower should not engage in.

It is wrong because essentially it is trading in death or enslavement and promoting killing and intoxication.

So, is killing in medicine (animal experimentation), medicine is ingested, also trading in death and have kamma/vipaka consequences...is this new drug derived from death of innocents a business essentially trading in bad medicine (poison)?

Mawkish1983
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Location: Essex, UK

Re: Stem-cells

Post by Mawkish1983 » Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:26 pm

green wrote:when I showed you that drugs are derived from sentient beings, you are annoyed.
I'd just like to say: I didn't detect any annoyance :). We're all friendly here.

:anjali:

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cooran
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Re: Stem-cells

Post by cooran » Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:58 pm

Hello green,

Kamma is intentional action. In non-ariyans like you and I, it flashes up in a millionth of a second or less, mostly fuelled by greed, hate or delusion. Attaching it later to a long rambling story filled with concepts explaining the action, the reasons you think you did an action, and the impact on all the other actors in your story is just part of papañca.
http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/papanca.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

metta
cooran
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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