Stream-entry: Would you know?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Digity
Posts: 1355
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:13 am

Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by Digity » Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:03 am

If you attained stream-entry would you know it?

User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by Ben » Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:55 am

I think so, Digity.

But then again, those naughty commentarians!
Now comes the aspect of dassanatho (realization of the truth) attained and enjoyed by sotapannas. From the moment the sotapannas attain the Path of stream-winning up to the time of their attaining anupadisesa-nibbana, while they are wandering in the happy course of existence, they have no perplexity of mind in regard to the existence of The Four Noble Truths--The Noble Truth of Suffering, The Noble Truth of the Origin of Suffering, The Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering and The Noble Truth of the Path Leading to the Cessation of Suffering. Whenever they contemplate these Four Noble Truths, they at once realize them vividly, just as one can distinctly see the planets and constellations high above in the sky. This is the exposition of the aspect of dassanatho (realization of the truth) attained and enjoyed by sotapannas.
-- Ledi Sayadaw: Catusacca Dipani
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 20041
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:49 am

Greetings,
Ben wrote:But then again, those naughty commentarians!
:rofl:

There is of course the need to discern between "knowing" you're a stream-entrant, and "believing" you're a stream-entrant, and that such belief might become conflated with knowing.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by Ben » Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:55 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Ben wrote:But then again, those naughty commentarians!
:rofl:

There is of course the need to discern between "knowing" you're a stream-entrant, and "believing" you're a stream-entrant, and that such belief might become conflated with knowing.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Ah yes, well, if one was a sotapanna, the knowledge is from the experience of citta taking nibbana as object. Sota-ariya magga and phala. Knowledge (nana) from experiential insight (vipassana). The experience of nibbana fruition state can then be repeated through the practice of nirodha samapati (I think that is the correct meditative practice).
Belief is not necessary.
Adios!
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:07 am

retrofuturist wrote:There is of course the need to discern between "knowing" you're a stream-entrant, and "believing" you're a stream-entrant, and that such belief might become conflated with knowing.
Oh, gawd, yeah. All too easy to shape one's "experiences" to fits one's expectations, which is a good reason to have a teacher, but even that is not a guarantee. Best to not worry too much about it. Just do the practice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

plwk
Posts: 1464
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:14 am

Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by plwk » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:16 am

When you can see what tilt is up to behind closed doors...then yes... :lol:

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:22 am

plwk wrote:When you can see what tilt is up to behind closed doors...then yes... :lol:
You are not to talk about that.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

villkorkarma
Posts: 506
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:43 pm

Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by villkorkarma » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:35 pm

If you meditate and believe that you have reach nirvana, check your sensedoors, is they still working?
one suffer because one hasnt existed long : )

User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by daverupa » Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:17 pm

Suppose there was a stream-enterer who, at the breakup of the body, after death, reappeared as a human being on Earth. What do they know of their noble status?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

User avatar
beeblebrox
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by beeblebrox » Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:31 pm

daverupa wrote:Suppose there was a stream-enterer who, at the breakup of the body, after death, reappeared as a human being on Earth. What do they know of their noble status?
I think they wouldn't know for a while. They'll practice at least some basic aspects of Dhamma, and gravitate towards the dhammic teachings due to their make-up, though. Just my guess.

pegembara
Posts: 1251
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by pegembara » Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:13 pm

Who knows?
But at least you can know for yourself if you still have craving or desire.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by daverupa » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:25 pm

pegembara wrote:Who knows?
But at least you can know for yourself if you still have craving or desire.
Those are still present in some capacity for stream-entrants.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

chownah
Posts: 7419
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by chownah » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:16 am

daverupa wrote:
pegembara wrote:Who knows?
But at least you can know for yourself if you still have craving or desire.
Those are still present in some capacity for stream-entrants.
You are correct but I think that pegembara's point is that one's focus would be more productive if placed on craving and desire instead of whether one has attained stream entry....
chownah

User avatar
Nibbida
Posts: 466
Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 3:44 am

Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by Nibbida » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:00 am

I have heard teachers speak of cases where there is a sudden, profound shift into stream-entry such that a person can't help but notice. But I have also heard of cases where the progress is so gradual that one acclimatizes to the changes along the way so that there are no "trumpets and violins" when the shift occurs. I remember one of the latter cases of this in the biography of Dipa Ma.

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 20041
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:38 am

Greetings,

See also the following, from the Mahaparinibbana Sutta...
DN 16 wrote:8. "But truly, Ananda, it is nothing strange that human beings should die. But if each time it happens you should come to the Tathagata and ask about them in this manner, indeed it would be troublesome to him. Therefore, Ananda, I will give you the teaching called the Mirror of the Dhamma, possessing which the noble disciple, should he so desire, can declare of himself: 'There is no more rebirth for me in hell, nor as an animal or ghost, nor in any realm of woe. A stream-enterer am I, safe from falling into the states of misery, assured am I and bound for Enlightenment.'"

9. "And what, Ananda, is that teaching called the Mirror of Dhamma, possessing which the noble disciple may thus declare of himself?

"In this case, Ananda, the noble disciple possesses unwavering faith in the Buddha thus: 'The Blessed One is an Arahant, the Fully Enlightened One, perfect in knowledge and conduct, the Happy One, the knower of the world, the paramount trainer of beings, the teacher of gods and men, the Enlightened One, the Blessed One.'

"He possesses unwavering faith in the Dhamma thus: 'Well propounded by the Blessed One is the Dhamma, evident, timeless, [18] inviting investigation, leading to emancipation, to be comprehended by the wise, each for himself.'

"He possesses unwavering faith in the Blessed One's Order of Disciples thus: 'Well faring is the Blessed One's Order of Disciples, righteously, wisely, and dutifully: that is to say, the four pairs of men, the eight classes of persons. The Blessed One's Order of Disciples is worthy of honor, of hospitality, of offerings, of veneration — the supreme field for meritorious deeds in the world.'

"And he possesses virtues that are dear to the Noble Ones, complete and perfect, spotless and pure, which are liberating, praised by the wise, uninfluenced (by worldly concerns), and favorable to concentration of mind.

10. "This, Ananda, is the teaching called the Mirror of the Dhamma, whereby the noble disciple may thus know of himself: 'There is no more rebirth for me in hell, nor as an animal or ghost, nor in any realm of woe. A stream-enterer am I, safe from falling into the states of misery, assured am I and bound for Enlightenment.'"

11. And also in Nadika, in the Brick House, the Blessed One often gave counsel to the bhikkhus thus: "Such and such is virtue; such and such is concentration; and such and such is wisdom. Great becomes the fruit, great is the gain of concentration when it is fully developed by virtuous conduct; great becomes the fruit, great is the gain of wisdom when it is fully developed by concentration; utterly freed from the taints of lust, becoming, and ignorance is the mind that is fully developed in wisdom."

12. When the Blessed One had stayed in Nadika as long as he pleased, he spoke to the Venerable Ananda, saying: "Come, Ananda, let us go to Vesali."

"So be it, O Lord." And the Blessed One took up his abode in Vesali together with a large community of bhikkhus, and stayed in Ambapali's grove.
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: arpansharma1 and 49 guests