Stream-entry: Would you know?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Digity
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Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by Digity » Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:03 am

If you attained stream-entry would you know it?

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Ben
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by Ben » Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:55 am

I think so, Digity.

But then again, those naughty commentarians!
Now comes the aspect of dassanatho (realization of the truth) attained and enjoyed by sotapannas. From the moment the sotapannas attain the Path of stream-winning up to the time of their attaining anupadisesa-nibbana, while they are wandering in the happy course of existence, they have no perplexity of mind in regard to the existence of The Four Noble Truths--The Noble Truth of Suffering, The Noble Truth of the Origin of Suffering, The Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering and The Noble Truth of the Path Leading to the Cessation of Suffering. Whenever they contemplate these Four Noble Truths, they at once realize them vividly, just as one can distinctly see the planets and constellations high above in the sky. This is the exposition of the aspect of dassanatho (realization of the truth) attained and enjoyed by sotapannas.
-- Ledi Sayadaw: Catusacca Dipani
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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retrofuturist
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:49 am

Greetings,
Ben wrote:But then again, those naughty commentarians!
:rofl:

There is of course the need to discern between "knowing" you're a stream-entrant, and "believing" you're a stream-entrant, and that such belief might become conflated with knowing.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Ben
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by Ben » Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:55 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Ben wrote:But then again, those naughty commentarians!
:rofl:

There is of course the need to discern between "knowing" you're a stream-entrant, and "believing" you're a stream-entrant, and that such belief might become conflated with knowing.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Ah yes, well, if one was a sotapanna, the knowledge is from the experience of citta taking nibbana as object. Sota-ariya magga and phala. Knowledge (nana) from experiential insight (vipassana). The experience of nibbana fruition state can then be repeated through the practice of nirodha samapati (I think that is the correct meditative practice).
Belief is not necessary.
Adios!
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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tiltbillings
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:07 am

retrofuturist wrote:There is of course the need to discern between "knowing" you're a stream-entrant, and "believing" you're a stream-entrant, and that such belief might become conflated with knowing.
Oh, gawd, yeah. All too easy to shape one's "experiences" to fits one's expectations, which is a good reason to have a teacher, but even that is not a guarantee. Best to not worry too much about it. Just do the practice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

plwk
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by plwk » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:16 am

When you can see what tilt is up to behind closed doors...then yes... :lol:

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tiltbillings
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:22 am

plwk wrote:When you can see what tilt is up to behind closed doors...then yes... :lol:
You are not to talk about that.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

villkorkarma
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by villkorkarma » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:35 pm

If you meditate and believe that you have reach nirvana, check your sensedoors, is they still working?
one suffer because one hasnt existed long : )

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daverupa
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by daverupa » Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:17 pm

Suppose there was a stream-enterer who, at the breakup of the body, after death, reappeared as a human being on Earth. What do they know of their noble status?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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beeblebrox
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by beeblebrox » Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:31 pm

daverupa wrote:Suppose there was a stream-enterer who, at the breakup of the body, after death, reappeared as a human being on Earth. What do they know of their noble status?
I think they wouldn't know for a while. They'll practice at least some basic aspects of Dhamma, and gravitate towards the dhammic teachings due to their make-up, though. Just my guess.

pegembara
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by pegembara » Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:13 pm

Who knows?
But at least you can know for yourself if you still have craving or desire.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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daverupa
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by daverupa » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:25 pm

pegembara wrote:Who knows?
But at least you can know for yourself if you still have craving or desire.
Those are still present in some capacity for stream-entrants.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

chownah
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by chownah » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:16 am

daverupa wrote:
pegembara wrote:Who knows?
But at least you can know for yourself if you still have craving or desire.
Those are still present in some capacity for stream-entrants.
You are correct but I think that pegembara's point is that one's focus would be more productive if placed on craving and desire instead of whether one has attained stream entry....
chownah

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Nibbida
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by Nibbida » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:00 am

I have heard teachers speak of cases where there is a sudden, profound shift into stream-entry such that a person can't help but notice. But I have also heard of cases where the progress is so gradual that one acclimatizes to the changes along the way so that there are no "trumpets and violins" when the shift occurs. I remember one of the latter cases of this in the biography of Dipa Ma.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:38 am

Greetings,

See also the following, from the Mahaparinibbana Sutta...
DN 16 wrote:8. "But truly, Ananda, it is nothing strange that human beings should die. But if each time it happens you should come to the Tathagata and ask about them in this manner, indeed it would be troublesome to him. Therefore, Ananda, I will give you the teaching called the Mirror of the Dhamma, possessing which the noble disciple, should he so desire, can declare of himself: 'There is no more rebirth for me in hell, nor as an animal or ghost, nor in any realm of woe. A stream-enterer am I, safe from falling into the states of misery, assured am I and bound for Enlightenment.'"

9. "And what, Ananda, is that teaching called the Mirror of Dhamma, possessing which the noble disciple may thus declare of himself?

"In this case, Ananda, the noble disciple possesses unwavering faith in the Buddha thus: 'The Blessed One is an Arahant, the Fully Enlightened One, perfect in knowledge and conduct, the Happy One, the knower of the world, the paramount trainer of beings, the teacher of gods and men, the Enlightened One, the Blessed One.'

"He possesses unwavering faith in the Dhamma thus: 'Well propounded by the Blessed One is the Dhamma, evident, timeless, [18] inviting investigation, leading to emancipation, to be comprehended by the wise, each for himself.'

"He possesses unwavering faith in the Blessed One's Order of Disciples thus: 'Well faring is the Blessed One's Order of Disciples, righteously, wisely, and dutifully: that is to say, the four pairs of men, the eight classes of persons. The Blessed One's Order of Disciples is worthy of honor, of hospitality, of offerings, of veneration — the supreme field for meritorious deeds in the world.'

"And he possesses virtues that are dear to the Noble Ones, complete and perfect, spotless and pure, which are liberating, praised by the wise, uninfluenced (by worldly concerns), and favorable to concentration of mind.

10. "This, Ananda, is the teaching called the Mirror of the Dhamma, whereby the noble disciple may thus know of himself: 'There is no more rebirth for me in hell, nor as an animal or ghost, nor in any realm of woe. A stream-enterer am I, safe from falling into the states of misery, assured am I and bound for Enlightenment.'"

11. And also in Nadika, in the Brick House, the Blessed One often gave counsel to the bhikkhus thus: "Such and such is virtue; such and such is concentration; and such and such is wisdom. Great becomes the fruit, great is the gain of concentration when it is fully developed by virtuous conduct; great becomes the fruit, great is the gain of wisdom when it is fully developed by concentration; utterly freed from the taints of lust, becoming, and ignorance is the mind that is fully developed in wisdom."

12. When the Blessed One had stayed in Nadika as long as he pleased, he spoke to the Venerable Ananda, saying: "Come, Ananda, let us go to Vesali."

"So be it, O Lord." And the Blessed One took up his abode in Vesali together with a large community of bhikkhus, and stayed in Ambapali's grove.
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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tiltbillings
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:28 am

Nibbida wrote:I have heard teachers speak of cases where there is a sudden, profound shift into stream-entry such that a person can't help but notice. But I have also heard of cases where the progress is so gradual that one acclimatizes to the changes along the way so that there are no "trumpets and violins" when the shift occurs. I remember one of the latter cases of this in the biography of Dipa Ma.
Probably so. In either case, working with an experienced teacher is important. All too easy, it is, to fool oneself that the "shift" experienced is something special.

Dipa Ma is a very inspiring:

http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/web-arch ... pa-ma.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Guy
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by Guy » Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:57 am

Nice post Retro. :bow:
Four types of letting go:

1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things

- Ajahn Brahm

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kirk5a
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by kirk5a » Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:44 pm

retrofuturist wrote: "And he possesses virtues that are dear to the Noble Ones, complete and perfect, spotless and pure, which are liberating, praised by the wise, uninfluenced (by worldly concerns), and favorable to concentration of mind.
I'm still not clear on this part. Is there more detail somewhere about these virtues - as they apply to a stream-enterer? Is it the 5 precepts?

I'm assuming there's a spectrum of virtue... an arahant surely would have perfect virtue all around. I recall reading something by Ajahn Chah where he said "I never do anything wrong, in public or private."

But since a stream enterer has much more work to do... would such a person never, say, utter a harsh word or engage in a bit of idle chit-chat? I'm wondering if that's how "possessing virtues.. complete and perfect" should be understood.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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daverupa
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by daverupa » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:19 pm

I'm inclined to think about "perfect morality" in the following way:

Sotapanna and Sakadagamin = perfect sila
Anagamin = perfect sila + perfect samadhi
Arahant = perfect sila + perfect samadhi + perfect panna

So perfect morality in this case isn't necessarily the formulation of sila known as the five precepts (although they may end up included as we proceed). Perfect morality in this case is simply Right Speech, Right Action, and Right Livelihood:

Magga-vibhanga Sutta" (SN 45.8):
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, abstaining from divisive speech, abstaining from abusive speech, abstaining from idle chatter: This, monks, is called right speech.

"And what, monks, is right action? Abstaining from taking life, abstaining from stealing, abstaining from unchastity: This, monks, is called right action.

"And what, monks, is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right livelihood: This, monks, is called right livelihood."

I note that of the precepts, all but the fifth are present in this model. This would help explain the interesting Sarakani Sutta since a stream-entrant, without perfect samadhi as a necessary quality, is therefore still able to run afoul of heedlessness generally, intoxicants particularly.

Maybe the Sakadagamin is a stream-entrant with the fifth precept in place. Perhaps also sexual misconduct is practiced as chastity rather than in a lay context (pun). These two further developments of sila would tend to reduce, then eliminate, the remaining two lower fetters, the requirement for becoming Anagamin.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Nibbida
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by Nibbida » Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:28 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Nibbida wrote:I have heard teachers speak of cases where there is a sudden, profound shift into stream-entry such that a person can't help but notice. But I have also heard of cases where the progress is so gradual that one acclimatizes to the changes along the way so that there are no "trumpets and violins" when the shift occurs. I remember one of the latter cases of this in the biography of Dipa Ma.
Probably so. In either case, working with an experienced teacher is important. All too easy, it is, to fool oneself that the "shift" experienced is something special.

Dipa Ma is a very inspiring:

http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/web-arch ... pa-ma.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Good point. It would equally be a mistake (and more problematic) to think that stream-entry had happened, when in fact it had not.

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