Stream-entry: Would you know?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
rowyourboat
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by rowyourboat » Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:37 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Nibbida wrote:I have heard teachers speak of cases where there is a sudden, profound shift into stream-entry such that a person can't help but notice. But I have also heard of cases where the progress is so gradual that one acclimatizes to the changes along the way so that there are no "trumpets and violins" when the shift occurs. I remember one of the latter cases of this in the biography of Dipa Ma.
Probably so. In either case, working with an experienced teacher is important. All too easy, it is, to fool oneself that the "shift" experienced is something special.

Dipa Ma is a very inspiring:

http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/web-arch ... pa-ma.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I believe you are correct. Even better to see it as a landmark on your way to the final destination, rather than a sub-destination.

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

chownah
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by chownah » Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:06 am

Maybe some people would know that they had entered the stream and some people would not....think about it...for every kind of knowing in the world some people have it and some people do not.....should this be any different for stream entry?
chownah

rowyourboat
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by rowyourboat » Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:56 pm

:goodpost: not many can easily conceptualise and put into words, what is experienced (as well). Best to let go and keep practicing.
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

yiming
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by yiming » Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:05 pm

chownah wrote:Maybe some people would know that they had entered the stream and some people would not....think about it...for every kind of knowing in the world some people have it and some people do not.....should this be any different for stream entry?
chownah
All other kinds of knowing in the world are the result of selfish acquisition.
Stream entry cannot be attained by the self. :namaste:

chownah
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by chownah » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:53 am

yiming wrote:
chownah wrote:Maybe some people would know that they had entered the stream and some people would not....think about it...for every kind of knowing in the world some people have it and some people do not.....should this be any different for stream entry?
chownah
All other kinds of knowing in the world are the result of selfish acquisition.
Stream entry cannot be attained by the self. :namaste:
Self can not acquire anything...
chownah

yiming
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by yiming » Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:56 pm

chownah wrote: Self can not acquire anything...
chownah
Correct. We are a collection of selves. :toast:

chownah
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by chownah » Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:36 am

yiming wrote:
chownah wrote: Self can not acquire anything...
chownah
Correct. We are a collection of selves. :toast:
Do you have a spell checker on your compuer? I think the correct quote should be:
Correct. We are a correction of shelves. :toast:

chownah

yiming
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by yiming » Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:46 pm

chownah wrote: Do you have a spell checker on your compuer? I think the correct quote should be:
Correct. We are a correction of shelves. :toast:

chownah
We are quoting the same thing but I can only say it the Chinese way.
Velly solly. :sage:

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Sovatthika
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by Sovatthika » Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:35 am

kirk5a wrote:
Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:44 pm
retrofuturist wrote: "And he possesses virtues that are dear to the Noble Ones, complete and perfect, spotless and pure, which are liberating, praised by the wise, uninfluenced (by worldly concerns), and favorable to concentration of mind.
I'm still not clear on this part. Is there more detail somewhere about these virtues - as they apply to a stream-enterer? Is it the 5 precepts?

I'm assuming there's a spectrum of virtue... an arahant surely would have perfect virtue all around. I recall reading something by Ajahn Chah where he said "I never do anything wrong, in public or private."

But since a stream enterer has much more work to do... would such a person never, say, utter a harsh word or engage in a bit of idle chit-chat? I'm wondering if that's how "possessing virtues.. complete and perfect" should be understood.

i spent a fair amount of time making this post and i hope it benefits many (or even one). here you will find 'how to proclaim stream-winning by yourself,' 'factors for stream entry,' and 'the mirror of the stream-enterer'

so the stainless virtues are the five precepts. also, the stream enterer does not have much work to do compared to the rounds of rebirth that lack a discernible beginning. there is a sutta where the buddha compares saṃsāra and stream entry to the ocean and a few drops of water (paraphrasing due to lack of reference)
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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zerotime
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by zerotime » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:03 am

kirk5a wrote:
Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:44 pm
But since a stream enterer has much more work to do... would such a person never, say, utter a harsh word or engage in a bit of idle chit-chat? I'm wondering if that's how "possessing virtues.. complete and perfect" should be understood.
yes. Harsh speech is eradicated before arhanthood at the anagamin state. So the sotappanas can speak with harsh words. You should investigate about the eradicated fetters at every stage.

About the perfection of virtues, check the context of the Suttas to see when the Buddha is talking to bhikkhus or to lay people.

paul
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by paul » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:51 pm

Virtue is the foundation of samadhi and panna. Precepts are training rules, and it is more important to experience the relationship between sila's influence on samadhi and insight. To go beyond faith, the priority is to experience the dynamics of the path.

"The three divisions of the Noble Eightfold Path provide the check against this threefold layering of the defilements. The first, the training in moral discipline, restrains unwholesome bodily and verbal activity and thus prevents defilements from reaching the stage of transgression. The training in concentration provides the safeguard against the stage of manifestation. It removes already manifest defilements and protects the mind from their continued influx. But even though concentration may be pursued to the depths of full absorption, it cannot touch the basic source of affliction — the latent tendencies lying dormant in the mental continuum. Against these concentration is powerless, since to root them out calls for more than mental calm. What it calls for, beyond the composure and serenity of the unified mind, is wisdom (pañña), a penetrating vision of phenomena in their fundamental mode of being."---"The Noble Eightfold Path", Bikkhu Bodhi.

"There is the case where a monk is wholly accomplished in virtue, moderately accomplished in concentration, and moderately accomplished in discernment.
[…]
"With the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, he is one who has seven more times at most. Having transmigrated and wandered on among devas and human beings, he will put an end to stress.”—-AN 3:86
Last edited by paul on Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:53 pm, edited 3 times in total.

xofz
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by xofz » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:18 pm

I don't mean to be too blunt (and this may come off as a little rough), but stream entrants are surer about their stream entry than they were that they lost their virginity, right when it happened. There is absolute, indefatigable certainty.

Garrib
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by Garrib » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:07 am

xofz wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:18 pm
I don't mean to be too blunt (and this may come off as a little rough), but stream entrants are surer about their stream entry than they were that they lost their virginity, right when it happened. There is absolute, indefatigable certainty.
How can you be so sure of this?

SarathW
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by SarathW » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:39 am

xofz wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:18 pm
I don't mean to be too blunt (and this may come off as a little rough), but stream entrants are surer about their stream entry than they were that they lost their virginity, right when it happened. There is absolute, indefatigable certainty.
Are you make this statement from your experience?
If yes, can you share it with us?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Crazy cloud
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by Crazy cloud » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:38 pm

Find out who is asking about stream entering and discover that the answer is the stream ..

:smile:
your name Mori means forest like the infinite fresh green distances of your blindness

Saengnapha
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:53 am

I think a stream winner is not concerned with stages but with the fulfillment of the Buddha's Eightfold Path as a complete activity in each moment. It is a total immersion of one's life, activities, internal and external, in Dhamma, not in yourself, your narrative, the 'I' maker. This would require an upheaval of one's orientation from the bottom up. Buddhism seems to outline this quite well.

chownah
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Re: Stream-entry: Would you know?

Post by chownah » Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:43 am

Crazy cloud wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:38 pm
Find out who is asking about stream entering and discover that the answer is the stream ..

:smile:
:goodpost:
chownah

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