karmic cause of schizophrenia

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
silentone
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by silentone »

altar wrote:Anguttara Nikaya Sutta 3.103 Lamentation
‘This, monks, is reckoned to be lamentation in the discipline of the Ariyan, namely, singing. This is reckoned as causing madness in the discipline of the Ariyan, namely, dancing. This is reckoned as childishness in the discipline of the Ariyan, namely, immoderate laughter that displays the teeth.
Wherefore, monks, away with the bridge that leads to singing and dancing! Enough for you, if you are pleased righteously, to smile just to show your pleasure.’
Well friend, I hope you are not lamenting :)
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Annapurna
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

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I skipped a LOT of posts here....but I read something about self medication and OCD.

This is interesting, because recently on TV, a patient of Tourette syndrome was shown, who is getting Cannabis as a medication.

Tourette syndrome patients have compulsive ticks, grimaces and curses, and this patient is next to symptom free, if he can keep his cannabis level.

For this purpose, he must have Cannabis with him, and sometimes, he has to smoke in public places.

When this occaion arises, he approaches a policeman, if one is nearby, and shows his prescription, and asks for permission to use his medicine.

Which is never a problem.

Done in this way, I find Cannabis medication helpful, and no breach of the precept.

IF a patient of OCD could find a doctor who is a legal support here, the thing is lifted on another level than drug abuse, poorly cloaked as self medication, and of course, anybody's drug consumption is not my biz.

It's only my biz when I am involved wiht that person and suffering from the abuse.

On the other hand, I know a lot of Cannabis users, and most of them are addicted, their behaviour is poor, shows frequent mood swings and agressiveness, coupled with paranoia, panic attacks, "written sick times", unemployment, social decline, and so forth.

And others seem their normal self.

I stay away from drugs.

My drugs are food.

I think we can steer our well being and even our moods by the chemistry we eat, not only by the one we smoke.

There is "feel-good" food, definitely, and I think a lot of "psychological cases" could receive help from an individual and properly balanced diet.

If an inner balance is there, nobody wants to mess it up with drugs...

Like someone else said, I need to get paid for drinking, as it leaves me stupid for hours, with my body buzzing, and all I do is wait around til it wears off.

Of course I have a lot of natural stupidity without alcohol as well! :smile:
PeterB
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by PeterB »

I dont know the situation in the US Anna but no medic in Europe would ever prescribe cannabis for OCD.
Quite the reverse, we spend a good deal of time weaning people with a range of conditions including OCD OFF cannabis.

In a proportion of cases they then become symptom free with no further intervention.

But I know better than to debate with users.

Edit: remove pejorative expression. Mike
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Annapurna
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by Annapurna »

PeterB wrote:I dont know the situation in the US Anna but no medic in Europe would ever prescribe cannabis for OCD.
.
I was under the impression that it was a German case, but my memory may be failing me.
Quite the reverse, we spend a good deal of time weaning people with a range of conditions including OCD OFF In a proportion of cases they then become symptom free with no further intervention.

But I know better than to debate with stoners.
Me too. But when I told somebody with an alleged Bipolar disorder that I think he is trying to self medicate he said: "Thank you" to me. He WAS thankful.

I also think it is the wrong self medication.
silentone
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by silentone »

Peter, I understand where you are coming from. I understand that you want to help people. I applaud that effort :)

From my perspective :

The problem with many of these disorders, it is difficult in the early years of research to flush out differences in causation and correlation.

Many people with very severe disorders will try to self medicate, because they do not understand that they have a disorder. They experiment with one thing that they interpret as providing some sort of relief...but its usually not just one substance.

As a result, any study that goes back and looks at this individual can ask them "did you use Y or Z" and if they answer yes, then their behavior becomes correlated to that drug. It doesn't mean that all drugs are good or bad... just that multivariable analysis is usually needed to separate risk factors.

To study complicated psychological problems and abuse, it is very important to take into account other confounding social indicators. For instance, poor people with mental disorders tend to experiment more and have a larger poly drug history because they have less access to legitimate medical treatment. They are also less likely to have people in their life that can accurately diagnose and help them. So, the problem is that there is never a single correlation, but rather a multiplicity of them which must be waded through.

Say for instance Paxil grew on a plant rather than a drug store. How many people would show a correlation between depression and Paxil ? How many people that couldn't get prozac, would find the paxil and begin using it. People that are poor often times have the worse break downs because they under more stress, have poor nutrition (VERY iMPORTANT), have fewer people in their immediate family they can rely on... etc... as a result anything they have touched becomes amplified in correlation studies.

People that have learning disabilities, people that have had consistent failures at school, are also more likely to suffer from feelings of depression, to blame themselves. This pain is something they will try to fix regardless. I have a family member that used pot, and he never had anywhere near the level of academic success I did. His problems started LONG before marijuana though, and it was only after a lot of intensive study by my relatives, that they learned he had a disability - dyslexia!

His grades are now MUCH higher thanks to the fact that he saw people licensed to help him overcome this disability. I'm sure that if he had a drug test and they saw the weed, they would have blamed his poor behavior and his failures on the drug. I doubt they would have looked much further into the root of his problems and actually ascertained what was making him feel so negative and angry towards himself. Fortunately my family's love was both methodical and consistent for him during this time.

The problem with turning a drug into "thing" that we blame for social problems, is that it doesn't allow us to see clearly what is going on with a person. We are inevitably using previous judgements to say "ahh this must be the root of the problem"... people are NEVER that simple. Certainly there are some drugs that will never have legitimate practice in psychotherapy (methamphetamine comes to mind, though it might be useful in treating immediate damage from heart attack stroke in emergency room settings). Everything that goes into the body will effect the mind. Some models of addiction include eating disorders like anorexia. Some people have theorized that the behavior to starve one's self can become addictive... the endorphins released from lower blood sugar levels actually drive the person to continue to continue the behavior like a drug! How many times when you fast do you get a sort of speedy feeling in your gut? The body releases chemicals to help your body deal with the starvation, and these are also mind altering. Would people that fast too frequently be considered drug users? I have heard psychologists in this country argue just that.

I would encourage people to look at how far psychology has come in the last 50 years. 30+ years ago Autism was labelled as "infantile schizophrenia" ... Watch the story of Temple Grandin ( a noted scientist with Autism), and you can see in just one instance, how much our understanding of variant psychological states has changed in just a few decades. They locked those children up in institutions, and most of them never even learned to talk. Fortunately, Temple Grandin's mother would have none of this, taught her daughter to read and write, helped her get multiple scientific degrees, and her success sparked a complete reversal in the practice of psychology and psychiatry.

You can tell a person not to be heedless... but each person has a different head and a different mind so only they are going to know what this looks like.
Buddhism I understand encourages a person to understand the fundamental difference between conventional truth and absolute truth.

Conventionally, drugs aren't that great on people. In absolute terms, a human's life is a process of mediating between many different ideals. Healthcare professionals are a necessity in this process, but the ultimate test of peace, doesn't come from an institution and they shouldn't be relied upon as a source of absolute knowledge.

Compassion is more than just a virtue. It is the perfection of wisdom.
Last edited by silentone on Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mikenz66
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by mikenz66 »

Please keep this conversation civil. Personal attacks and pejorative words may be removed/edited.
silentone
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by silentone »

I feel if we are all honest, then this discussion will have a very positive outcome.

Who knows, from either side of the debate, where the words we have spoken will lead us all in the future?

I feel positive about this :namaste:
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Annapurna
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by Annapurna »

silentone wrote:
His grades are now MUCH higher thanks to the fact that he saw people licensed to help him overcome this disability. I'm sure that if he had a drug test and they saw the weed, they would have blamed his poor behavior and his failures on the drug. I doubt they would have looked much further into the root of his problems and actually ascertained what was making him feel so negative and angry towards himself.
You are assuming this, and you know what to assume makes of you and me.
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Annapurna
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by Annapurna »

Silentone,

your posts are a bit verbose, and you may not be aware of it, but this reduces people's ability and willingness to read them.

I can't, to be honest.

Could you sum up your point a bit more?

Like:

I am for Cannabis, because my COD goes away. and I want to convince you that in this case it doesn't constitute a breach of the 5 th precept.

If this IS indeed your line of thinking, you don't need us to sanctify or diss your means.

This is between you and your kamma, or your teacher.
silentone
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by silentone »

Annapurna wrote:
silentone wrote:
His grades are now MUCH higher thanks to the fact that he saw people licensed to help him overcome this disability. I'm sure that if he had a drug test and they saw the weed, they would have blamed his poor behavior and his failures on the drug. I doubt they would have looked much further into the root of his problems and actually ascertained what was making him feel so negative and angry towards himself.
You are assuming this, and you know what to assume makes of you and me.
An assumption that I felt was guided by studies I had already discussed. The researchers seemed to believe this was a common mistake in previous studies.
silentone
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

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Annapurna wrote:Silentone,

your posts are a bit verbose, and you may not be aware of it, but this reduces people's ability and willingness to read them.

I can't, to be honest.

Could you sum up your point a bit more?

Like:

I am for Cannabis, because my COD goes away. and I want to convince you that in this case it doesn't constitute a breach of the 5 th precept.

If this IS indeed your line of thinking, you don't need us to sanctify or diss your means.

This is between you and your kamma, or your teacher.
I am sorry for this. I did not mean for my writing style to be a problem. I will try to word things more clearly in the future.

Thanks for you input.

My summary? Some of the opinions on here will be hindrance in helping or dealing with people with mental disorders. They will not contribute to their peace. People should think long and hard about their judgments and how they will impact those they are trying help. I share my story to give insight.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

In case some are not convinced yet about the link between drug use and psychosis.

Cannabis use 'raises psychosis risk' - study
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PeterB
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by PeterB »

There is very little remaining doubt within Mental Health professionals Bhante....even those of us who came into the field from a Laingian "anti" psychiatry position are convinced.

The evidence is undeniable......except of course to cannabis users and if they are middle class to some of their parents..
We see the results over filling our clinics on a daily basis here in the UK.
We have an epidemic of cannabis related psychosis and and clinical anxiety which is overwhelming our resources.
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Annapurna
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by Annapurna »

silentone wrote:
Annapurna wrote:Silentone,

your posts are a bit verbose, and you may not be aware of it, but this reduces people's ability and willingness to read them.

I can't, to be honest.

Could you sum up your point a bit more?

Like:

I am for Cannabis, because my COD goes away. and I want to convince you that in this case it doesn't constitute a breach of the 5 th precept.

If this IS indeed your line of thinking, you don't need us to sanctify or diss your means.

This is between you and your kamma, or your teacher.
I am sorry for this. I did not mean for my writing style to be a problem. I will try to word things more clearly in the future.

Thanks for you input.

My summary? Some of the opinions on here will be hindrance in helping or dealing with people with mental disorders. They will not contribute to their peace. People should think long and hard about their judgments and how they will impact those they are trying help. I share my story to give insight.
That's brilliant in brevity and clarity! Thank you and no apology necessary!

Silentone, in other words, you wish to help, because you know suffering so well.

Your POV is not shared by some people...

And I assume it is hard to convince them otherwise!

By this I don't mean to discourage you from sharing your experience! Sharing your story may help, or may not.

I am for moderate Cannabis use, if done under the surveillance of a medic, and for medicinal purposes only. Like the products from poppy.

In this case I advocate anything that reduces suffering.

As a recreational drug, to relieve symptoms of stress that could better be met by practising meditation etc, .no.
It is a breach of the precept.

And how others deal with that is their decision.

Information is available...
Last edited by Annapurna on Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
PeterB
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by PeterB »

Anna there IS no use of cannabis "under the supervision of a medic"...any medic who undertook that in Europe or the US would be struck off the register. They would no longer be a medic.

Over the last decade I and my colleagues have had extensive experience of people self medicating with cannabis, including those with OCD. Always and invariably any shorter term gains are eventually outweighed by their condition worsening. At which point they turn up at our clinics whimpering and pasty faced and suffering greatly.
I see this over and over. I was a "flower child" of the sixties. At one point I held a liberal view of cannabis.
No longer.
The proportion of those who react badly to cannabis is still relatively small but is growing.
This of course partly reflects raised numbers of users, but there is also evidence that prolonged exposure is having a secondary effext of causing a proportion of subjects to becoming sensitised to one or more of the range of chemicals found in cannabis. This may be associated with the GM strains of cannabis reaching Europe and the US from Holland.

So, interms both of individual response and in terms of any given batch of cannabis the user is playing Russian Roulette.

They may go a whole lifetime with no obvious response apart from a smokers cough.
Or they have to be prised off the ceiling of a clinic like mine.
There is no way of predicting this. And long term users can and do flip into psychotic states.

Practitioners of Buddha Dhamma should neither be in breach of the 5th precept, nor condone the use of cannabis in others.
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