karmic cause of schizophrenia

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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mikenz66
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:09 pm

Please keep this conversation civil. Personal attacks and pejorative words may be removed/edited.

silentone
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by silentone » Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:29 pm

I feel if we are all honest, then this discussion will have a very positive outcome.

Who knows, from either side of the debate, where the words we have spoken will lead us all in the future?

I feel positive about this :namaste:

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Annapurna
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by Annapurna » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:19 pm

silentone wrote:
His grades are now MUCH higher thanks to the fact that he saw people licensed to help him overcome this disability. I'm sure that if he had a drug test and they saw the weed, they would have blamed his poor behavior and his failures on the drug. I doubt they would have looked much further into the root of his problems and actually ascertained what was making him feel so negative and angry towards himself.
You are assuming this, and you know what to assume makes of you and me.

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Annapurna
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by Annapurna » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:26 pm

Silentone,

your posts are a bit verbose, and you may not be aware of it, but this reduces people's ability and willingness to read them.

I can't, to be honest.

Could you sum up your point a bit more?

Like:

I am for Cannabis, because my COD goes away. and I want to convince you that in this case it doesn't constitute a breach of the 5 th precept.

If this IS indeed your line of thinking, you don't need us to sanctify or diss your means.

This is between you and your kamma, or your teacher.

silentone
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by silentone » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:49 pm

Annapurna wrote:
silentone wrote:
His grades are now MUCH higher thanks to the fact that he saw people licensed to help him overcome this disability. I'm sure that if he had a drug test and they saw the weed, they would have blamed his poor behavior and his failures on the drug. I doubt they would have looked much further into the root of his problems and actually ascertained what was making him feel so negative and angry towards himself.
You are assuming this, and you know what to assume makes of you and me.
An assumption that I felt was guided by studies I had already discussed. The researchers seemed to believe this was a common mistake in previous studies.

silentone
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by silentone » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:52 pm

Annapurna wrote:Silentone,

your posts are a bit verbose, and you may not be aware of it, but this reduces people's ability and willingness to read them.

I can't, to be honest.

Could you sum up your point a bit more?

Like:

I am for Cannabis, because my COD goes away. and I want to convince you that in this case it doesn't constitute a breach of the 5 th precept.

If this IS indeed your line of thinking, you don't need us to sanctify or diss your means.

This is between you and your kamma, or your teacher.
I am sorry for this. I did not mean for my writing style to be a problem. I will try to word things more clearly in the future.

Thanks for you input.

My summary? Some of the opinions on here will be hindrance in helping or dealing with people with mental disorders. They will not contribute to their peace. People should think long and hard about their judgments and how they will impact those they are trying help. I share my story to give insight.

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:23 am

In case some are not convinced yet about the link between drug use and psychosis.

Cannabis use 'raises psychosis risk' - study
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PeterB
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by PeterB » Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:31 am

There is very little remaining doubt within Mental Health professionals Bhante....even those of us who came into the field from a Laingian "anti" psychiatry position are convinced.

The evidence is undeniable......except of course to cannabis users and if they are middle class to some of their parents..
We see the results over filling our clinics on a daily basis here in the UK.
We have an epidemic of cannabis related psychosis and and clinical anxiety which is overwhelming our resources.

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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by Annapurna » Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:06 am

silentone wrote:
Annapurna wrote:Silentone,

your posts are a bit verbose, and you may not be aware of it, but this reduces people's ability and willingness to read them.

I can't, to be honest.

Could you sum up your point a bit more?

Like:

I am for Cannabis, because my COD goes away. and I want to convince you that in this case it doesn't constitute a breach of the 5 th precept.

If this IS indeed your line of thinking, you don't need us to sanctify or diss your means.

This is between you and your kamma, or your teacher.
I am sorry for this. I did not mean for my writing style to be a problem. I will try to word things more clearly in the future.

Thanks for you input.

My summary? Some of the opinions on here will be hindrance in helping or dealing with people with mental disorders. They will not contribute to their peace. People should think long and hard about their judgments and how they will impact those they are trying help. I share my story to give insight.
That's brilliant in brevity and clarity! Thank you and no apology necessary!

Silentone, in other words, you wish to help, because you know suffering so well.

Your POV is not shared by some people...

And I assume it is hard to convince them otherwise!

By this I don't mean to discourage you from sharing your experience! Sharing your story may help, or may not.

I am for moderate Cannabis use, if done under the surveillance of a medic, and for medicinal purposes only. Like the products from poppy.

In this case I advocate anything that reduces suffering.

As a recreational drug, to relieve symptoms of stress that could better be met by practising meditation etc, .no.
It is a breach of the precept.

And how others deal with that is their decision.

Information is available...
Last edited by Annapurna on Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

PeterB
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by PeterB » Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:09 am

Anna there IS no use of cannabis "under the supervision of a medic"...any medic who undertook that in Europe or the US would be struck off the register. They would no longer be a medic.

Over the last decade I and my colleagues have had extensive experience of people self medicating with cannabis, including those with OCD. Always and invariably any shorter term gains are eventually outweighed by their condition worsening. At which point they turn up at our clinics whimpering and pasty faced and suffering greatly.
I see this over and over. I was a "flower child" of the sixties. At one point I held a liberal view of cannabis.
No longer.
The proportion of those who react badly to cannabis is still relatively small but is growing.
This of course partly reflects raised numbers of users, but there is also evidence that prolonged exposure is having a secondary effext of causing a proportion of subjects to becoming sensitised to one or more of the range of chemicals found in cannabis. This may be associated with the GM strains of cannabis reaching Europe and the US from Holland.

So, interms both of individual response and in terms of any given batch of cannabis the user is playing Russian Roulette.

They may go a whole lifetime with no obvious response apart from a smokers cough.
Or they have to be prised off the ceiling of a clinic like mine.
There is no way of predicting this. And long term users can and do flip into psychotic states.

Practitioners of Buddha Dhamma should neither be in breach of the 5th precept, nor condone the use of cannabis in others.

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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by Annapurna » Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:38 am

Peter, I respect your professional expertise, and I agree with you on the studies.

But I saw this particular case on TV... and it was a trustworthy report! Police and medics were interviewed about him. Perhaps there are exceptions for Tourette, or this man is on a study?

I don't know. But I have seen many people with all sorts of mental disorders who had a history of drug abuse, or are still doing it.

That said, I am totally against Cannabis etc, as a recreational drug.

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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by PeterB » Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:43 am

Incidentally the "range of conditions" is extensive. One of my colleagues recently treated a woman with a full blown cannabis psychosis caused by her self medicating for glaucoma.

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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by PeterB » Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:51 am

I cant comment on your Tourettes case Anna..I do know that if any medic prescribed cannabis for a Tourettes sufferer in the UK they woukld be dsibarred from practising and might face jail time.

The British law was modified in terms of cannabis use a few years ago...one of the clearly observable results was a huge increase in cannabis related mental health conditions..mostly clinical anxiety states and mostly treatable but highly disruptive.

The result of that in turn was a huge reaction from parent groups, medics, educationalists etc to recriminalise cannabis back to its former status, and the politiciands said " we got it wrong"..even campaigning liberal journalists did a volte-face.

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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by PeterB » Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:52 am

I cant comment on your Tourettes case Anna..I do know that if any medic prescribed cannabis for a Tourettes sufferer in the UK they woukld be disbarred from practising and might face jail time.

The British law was modified in terms of cannabis use a few years ago...one of the clearly observable results was a huge increase in cannabis related mental health conditions..mostly clinical anxiety states and mostly treatable but highly disruptive.

The result of that in turn was a huge reaction from parent groups, medics, educationalists etc to recriminalise cannabis back to its former status, and the politicians said " we got it wrong"..even campaigning liberal journalists did a volte-face.
Last edited by PeterB on Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Annapurna
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by Annapurna » Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:52 am

Dear Peter,

of course you are right, it takes a special permission.

I did a google research about "Tourette syndrome and Cannabis" which brought several links in German, one of them by the University of Hannover, and also the TV docu I mentioned.

http://www.google.de/url?sa=t&source=we ... eA&cad=rja" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Perhaps you can understand it, if not, let me know, I will give it a try. In any case a court of law decided he is entiteld to getting "medical Cannabis" via prescription in a pharmacy, I also found an English link. Hold on.
Last edited by Annapurna on Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:05 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Dan74
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by Dan74 » Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:02 am

As someone with no relevant knowledge or agenda, I went to the wiki page and saw this (perhaps the people in the know can comment on the reliability or otherwise of this info, especially in boldface (mine)):
Cannabis used medically does have several well-documented beneficial effects. Among these are: the amelioration of nausea and vomiting, stimulation of hunger in chemotherapy and AIDS patients, lowered intraocular eye pressure (shown to be effective for treating glaucoma), as well as general analgesic effects (pain reliever).b[›]

Cannabis was manufactured and sold by U.S. pharmaceutical companies from the 1880s through the 1930s, but the lack of documented information on the frequency and effectiveness of its use makes it difficult to evaluate its medicinal value. In 1915, one medical supply house, the Frank S. Betz Co. of Hammond, Indiana, offered "Cannabis Indica (Cannabis sative)" as one of about 70 "Crude Drugs" for $2.25 per lb., and offered a 10 percent discount for the purchase of 5 lbs.[78] The same company advertised "Tincture Cannabis Indica, U.S.P.," for 80 cents per lb.[79] Cannabis in the form of a tincture and a fluid extract is documented in a 1929-30 Parke Davis & Co catalog,[80] and is listed as an active ingredient in ten products for cough, colic, neuralgia, cholera mordus and other medical conditions, as well as a "narcotic, analgesic, and sedative". The catalog also lists compound medications containing cannabis that in some cases were apparently formulated by medical doctors, in its Pills and Tablets section.

As cannabis is further legalized for medicinal use, it is possible that some of the foregoing compound medicines, whose formulas have been copied exactly as published, may be scientifically tested to determine whether they are effective medications.

Less confirmed individual studies also have been conducted indicating cannabis to be beneficial to a gamut of conditions running from multiple sclerosis to depression. Synthesized cannabinoids are also sold as prescription drugs, including Marinol (dronabinol in the United States and Germany) and Cesamet (nabilone in Canada, Mexico, the United States and the United Kingdom).

Currently, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has not approved smoked marijuana for any condition or disease in the United States, largely because good quality scientific evidence for its use from U.S. studies is lacking; however, a major barrier to acquiring the necessary evidence is the lack of federal funding for this kind of research.[81] Regardless, fourteen states have legalized cannabis for medical use.[82][83] Canada, Spain, The Netherlands and Austria have also legalized cannabis for medicinal use.[84][85]
_/|\_

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Annapurna
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by Annapurna » Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:08 am

http://www.google.de/url?sa=t&source=we ... Rj8VC4NgaA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here is the study of Hannover.

7 patients in Germany are allowed to use medical Cannabis legally via prescription.o

I have no agenda to legalize Cannabis, btw.

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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by being5 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:40 am

I have a story I think is relevant here. It's not scientific it's from heart and intuition, from the empirical side of life.

The beloved partner of my youth had smoked a lot of cannabis in the swinging 60's and on into the 70's.
In 1978 he jumped off a building and thus ended his own life. Cruelly, he lived another hour after hitting the ground - long enough to regret and say he wanted to live.
Two days later I received a letter he posted just before jumping in which he urged me not take drugs, to stay away from drugs and told me 'drugs were bad'.
In his mind and then in mine the connection was clear.

In terms of dhamma? Conditions were such that he took his own life. That can't have gone well for the life that came next and it wasn't much fun for those who loved him and lived on.

I'm not going to debate this, it is simply an offering from my experience.

being5

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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by PeterB » Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:22 pm

I am sorry for your loss Being5 which I am sure you still feel.

A number of my colleagues have reached the position where if a cannabis user presents with anxiety, depression , flights of ideas and so on they will not treat them until they enter into a formal treatment contract which guarantees them them a minimum number of hours and follow up visits IF they foreswear cannabis use.
They also have to agree to random urine tests.
I have not yet gone as far as that with all clients..but I do insist on it with those clients with " revolving door" syndrome.
i.e. Who present time after time with the same set of symptoms.
This is not the result of moral outrage merely, it is the result of seeing the sheer futility of trying to help those who present with those kind of conditions who continue to use cannabis.

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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by Rael » Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:44 pm

Schizophrenia is all chemically related in the brain.
The High Priests of Modern Medicine play with the chemicals and can control some of the symptoms quite well actually.

As per why one has the affliction...

I would be more concerned with The High Priests of Modern Medicine teaching the patient the importance of developing some sort of Bodhicitta in the patient.

The patient has to create some sort of positive action towards other sentients....

Maybe the governments can step in and offer a life of volunteer work...with good pay

I bet King Ashoka would have some open mindedness to this alternate approach to the patient's well being.



I'm obviously of the school of thought all is Karmic....

can there be slip ups in the nature of Karmic retribution....ooops this one should not have schizophrenia at this moment...

it's a little more than a car accident.....

i'm new to Theravadian thought....Maybe my Mahayana thinking gets in the way....

Tibetans feel that there is a trick to long life....all the times in the past when you were killed early ....there is a possibility that one can use those years to influence a longer life in this one....I bring this up , for i believe the mentally ill have these afflictions due to Karma....I witness one Schizophrenic , full blown hearing voices all the time....drove him nuts.....
so he met Soka gakkai....and after awhile had the fortune to hear of a doctor's approach this by fasting for a month....

he attributes the cure to the fasting and the Mahayana practice.....

sorry folks this is going to be hard for me to separate the two schools of thought....

i'm getting me feet wet...

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