karmic cause of schizophrenia

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Jhana4
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by Jhana4 » Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:34 pm

silentone wrote:I am new to this forum
Welcome. So am I.
I myself use marijuana. I do not find this to be contradictory to Buddhist principles as I understand them.
I'm an agnostic about the messages in the Pali Canon. I read the suttas because I am into meditation and I like the Buddhist subculture. It isn't my religion, though I am interested in and respect the teachings. It is my understanding that the basic "requirements" for being a Buddhist is to try to keep the 5 precepts. One of those 5 precepts is to abstain from intoxicants. I think marijuana is an intoxicant. My interpretation of "intoxicant" as talked about Buddhist texts is anything that get someone high or that alters their state of consciousness. I would be interested to read your reasoning as to why marijuana use is consistent with Buddhist philosophy.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

silentone
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by silentone » Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:28 pm

I will continue discussions about the nature of Cannabis in private.

On a side note though... Karma is a relative thing.

What can you really say the karmic implications of Schizophrenia are?

Some schizophrenics have blinding insight into the universe. Ever see the movie "A Beautiful Mind" ?

People with OCD generally score much higher on IQ tests than those that don't have it.

A quick review of some of the greatest scholars and scientists in our history reveal... quite a few psychological "maladies". However, would we, or even they, be better off without them?

Is it a blessing or a curse? If I had the choice to come back without OCD would I?

I'm not sure honestly, that I would give up the insight I have into the world as a result of it. Who knows. Thats for my next life!?!? :)

I know that my small suffering in this life has given me insight into the suffering of others. I know that I wouldn't trade that insight for anything.
If it pushes me to helping others, haven't I accomplished enough? There are no freebies in life.
Perhaps in some golden moment of conception I chose to be this way, or brought it on myself... I know its made me a better person for having it.

Jhana4
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by Jhana4 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:27 am

In college I knew a lot of pot smokers. Different people handled it differently. Some led very productive lives and used it on the weekends like some people went out for drinks. Other people became lost with it. Individual mileage varies. Maybe it works for you and fits into your life, whereas others it just makes a bad problem worse.

I can understand why you don't want to talk about it and get into an argument on a web board.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

pegembara
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by pegembara » Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:58 pm

Just a comment.
Silent tone used cannabis for his OCD, not as an intoxicant but to make his mind clearer. Isn't psychiatric drugs mind altering too ? If they weren't they would be no different from placebo.
Having said that, using cannabis on healthy minds for recreation is an entirely different proposition.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

PeterB
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by PeterB » Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:47 pm

No ones mind is made clearer by cannabis or alcohol.
At best one might experience some temporary relief from the kind of pressure of thought, heightened affect, and hypervigilence that is part of the predisposing factors that manifest as OCD....but there are other ways to achieve this that do not breach the 5th precept.

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altar
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by altar » Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:39 pm

Anguttara Nikaya Sutta 3.103 Lamentation
‘This, monks, is reckoned to be lamentation in the discipline of the Ariyan, namely, singing. This is reckoned as causing madness in the discipline of the Ariyan, namely, dancing. This is reckoned as childishness in the discipline of the Ariyan, namely, immoderate laughter that displays the teeth.
Wherefore, monks, away with the bridge that leads to singing and dancing! Enough for you, if you are pleased righteously, to smile just to show your pleasure.’

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by Modus.Ponens » Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:43 pm

Hi Peter

I think in silentone's case it's not a breach of the 5th precept as the cannabis acts as a medication. Other medications also alter the mind and may be adictive. He experiemented with other medication and it didn't work so I don't see any problem with going with cannabis. However, I don't see that as conductive to good meditation.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

PeterB
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by PeterB » Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:57 pm

I think that you are not only wrong, but that you are condoning a behaviour that you do not appreciate the full implications of.
I see cannabis casualties, including those who self medicate, all the time.

There is at least one forum member who had he heeded warning about his cannabis use would possibly not now be in dire straights.

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by Modus.Ponens » Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:17 pm

From what I understood, you are a mental health professional so you are much more knowlegeable than me in this area.

My only point in the previous post is that if a substance acts as a medication and really works better than others, it should not be considered a breach of the 5th precept to take that substance.

Besides, doesn't medication for OCD also correlate with suicide? I have suffered imensely because of cannabis use (so I'm quite aware of the consequences of the drug), but if people are not susceptible to the same suffering I've passed, I don't see nothing wrong with making cannabis a medication.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

PeterB
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by PeterB » Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:35 pm

Modus..I would strongly advise against taking the evaluation of a pothead as to the consequences of, and reasons for, doing pot. This discussion is taking place in the context of a forum for discussion of the teaching of the Buddha, and there is no justification for breaching the fifth precept. Especially not self medication by someone whose judgement is invariably going to be clouded.

tamdrin
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by tamdrin » Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:09 pm

PeterB wrote:Modus..I would strongly advise against taking the evaluation of a pothead as to the consequences of, and reasons for, doing pot. This discussion is taking place in the context of a forum for discussion of the teaching of the Buddha, and there is no justification for breaching the fifth precept. Especially not self medication by someone whose judgement is invariably going to be clouded.
except all those pills psychiatrists push on people (which are actually mind altering drugs not medications) could very well be considered to have exactly the detrimental effects on peoples lives that someone who uses medical marijuana responsibly would undergo. They could easily be classified as breaking the fifth precept the way they are prescribed and abused by patients (including anti-anxiety pills etc-pills to relax-kilonopins etc).. all those are drugs prescribed by psychiatrists in the name of being "medication" as I see it the distinction is arbitrary- the line between a chemical compound having valid medical use and being a drug is very fine...

Jhana4
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by Jhana4 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:28 pm

I've known a lot of pot users in my life. In my un-expert opinion, pot effects most people the same way, but it doesn't effect everyone the same way. That seems to be a point a lot of people in this thread do not want to accept.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

PeterB
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by PeterB » Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:49 pm

tamdrin wrote:
PeterB wrote:Modus..I would strongly advise against taking the evaluation of a pothead as to the consequences of, and reasons for, doing pot. This discussion is taking place in the context of a forum for discussion of the teaching of the Buddha, and there is no justification for breaching the fifth precept. Especially not self medication by someone whose judgement is invariably going to be clouded.
except all those pills psychiatrists push on people (which are actually mind altering drugs not medications) could very well be considered to have exactly the detrimental effects on peoples lives that someone who uses medical marijuana responsibly would undergo. They could easily be classified as breaking the fifth precept the way they are prescribed and abused by patients (including anti-anxiety pills etc-pills to relax-kilonopins etc).. all those are drugs prescribed by psychiatrists in the name of being "medication" as I see it the distinction is arbitrary- the line between a chemical compound having valid medical use and being a drug is very fine...
Bollocks.

silentone
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by silentone » Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:02 am

Peter, may I ask what your experiences with mental disorders include?

It might help me to understand your position. If you do not mind sharing. I shared my experiences, but If you are not comfortable I understand :)
I don't mean necessarily in relation to a certain type of medication or whether or not a medical practice is valid. I am curious about what contact you have had with someone who has been hospitalised for panic disorder or schizophrenia.

silentone
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by silentone » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:59 am

PeterB wrote:No ones mind is made clearer by cannabis or alcohol.
At best one might experience some temporary relief from the kind of pressure of thought, heightened affect, and hypervigilence that is part of the predisposing factors that manifest as OCD....but there are other ways to achieve this that do not breach the 5th precept.
* I would like to share this... I am not asking for guidance, sympathy or help... I just hope the information sheds light on the way in which people experience and deal with struggle. :) *

You are apparently not familiar with Treatment Refractory Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. Close to 40% of people with this disorder find little if ANY benefit from conventional medications and therapy. There are surprisingly few medications out there that are effective.
Also this says nothing of the side effects of the drugs that are prescribed. IF you really want to try an altered state try this:

Double Strength Lexapro (we briefly upped this a little higher, but I really HATED it), One dose of Seroquel an antipsychotic, an additional double dose of Wellbutrin (to level off the side effects of the first two... which made me shake and vommit), and then klonopin or valium for intermintant panic attacks.

You should keep in mind that all of these medications alter your weight and sleeping habbits. All of them come with recommendations not to drive. All of them (with maybe the exception of wellbutrin) have dangerous withdrawal side effects (almost all of them can precipitate seizures if stopped too quickly), overdosing issues, etc. Have you ever heard of serotonin syndrome? It was a risk I had to live with DAILY when I was dealing with these drugs. Cymbalta triggered massive manic issues in me.

This was the most effective combination, but it was not the first I went on. I was also placed on several zoloft/wellbutrin and celexa combinations. I have been placed at one time or another on most of the SSRI's, several of the antipsychotic, anti panic dugs, and a handful of the SRNI's. Cymbalta makes me go manic, and I was nearly hospitalized on it.

In addition to this I did CBT.

In order to go on higher dosages, psychiatrists have to scale you up. Otherwise the side effects would be too overwhelming. So each drug in that cocktail had to have several weeks establishing each level of a dosage (going up or down). There are too many side effects to mention here... ringing, electrical sensations, loss of emotions, ... all well documented and several of which have been the subject of lawsuits against the drug makers. All of these medications are dangerous. The bottles they come in say so.

Without treatment I wash my hands with toxic chemicals. It blisters them and they bleed. I have a tendency to count and repeat things indefinitely in my head. I could list a number of behaviours that would seem very strange, both to you and me. Not walking on cracks (and then if I did tracing the pattern of a Chess piece with my foot). I would sometimes worry that I had driven over an animal on my way home from work, and begin looping around the block multiple times to assure myself I hadn't harmed anybody or anything. An individual with a neurosis is aware their behavior doesn't make sense, but has difficulty or an inability to alter it. I had to be hospitalised once in college. It was an experience I would prefer not to repeat.

People with OCD generally show inflammation in specific regions of the brain. They also show increased IQ scores, though I have no idea what mine was .

You seem to have a very different understanding of psychology.

I am open to suggestions, but as I have pointed out, I am quite happy with the level of functionality I have achieved :)
You can continue to denigrate it, but you will fail to make me into the unhappy version of myself you have constructed.

Two degrees, multiple clubs and organisation (several of which I was elected to leadership positions in), a disciplined athletic life, and a huge circle of friends. When I still had very severe symptoms I had very few friends and found it difficult to interact with people without getting very distracted by the static in my head. "People" have been the greatest gift I have received.


***from wikipedia (lol, because I actually am really that lazy :tongue: )
Treatment of OCD is an area needing significant improvement in prescribing regimens.[47] Benzodiazepines are sometimes used, although they are generally believed to be ineffective for treating OCD; however, effectiveness was found in one small study.[48] Serotonergic antidepressants typically take longer to show benefit in OCD than with most other disorders they are used to treat. It is common for 2–3 months to elapse before any tangible improvement is noticed. In addition to this, treatment usually requires high dosages. Fluoxetine, for example, is usually prescribed in dosages of 20 mg per day for clinical depression, whereas with OCD the dosage often ranges from 20 mg to 80 mg or higher, if necessary. In most cases antidepressant therapy alone provides only a partial reduction in symptoms, even in cases that are not deemed treatment resistant. Much current research is devoted to the therapeutic potential of the agents that affect the release of the neurotransmitter glutamate or the binding to its receptors. These include riluzole, memantine, gabapentin, N-Acetylcysteine (**this is a really cool antioxidant apart from this conversation, if you have the flu its great), and lamotrigine. MDMA, which is a powerful and illicit serotonergic drug, has also been anecdotally reported to temporarily alleviate the symptoms of OCD.[citation needed]

The atypical antipsychotics olanzapine, quetiapine, and risperidone have also been found to be useful as adjuncts to an SSRI in treatment-resistant OCD. However, these drugs are often poorly tolerated, and have significant metabolic side effects that limit their use. None of the atypical antipsychotics have demonstrated efficacy as a monotherapy.[49]
Last edited by silentone on Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:53 pm, edited 20 times in total.

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