karmic cause of schizophrenia

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tamdrin
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by tamdrin » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:47 pm

PeterB wrote:As it happens i did do a three years three months retreat. In Samye ling Retreat centre in Scotland. Starting when I was I was 19 years old.
One of the results was that my root lama sent me to train as a psychiatrist. Which entailed first becoming an MD.
Ok so thats good, I'm proud of ya guy. So in your view how do the teachings and views of theravada practice fit with the Tibetan Buddhist practices?

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Viscid
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by Viscid » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:49 pm

I think the argument at the heart of this thread is whether or not the conditions into which one is born, including having mental and physical disabilities, are the consequence of actions done in past lives.

There's also the argument that 'hell' is either a realm one is reborn into after death, or a mental state people develop in the life they currently live.

Both arguments depend on how literal you want to take the suttas. The more conservative types will be more likely to argue that hellish mental realms that one is born into are a result of past immoral behaviour.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James

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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by Jhana4 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:29 pm

I've never seen an internet argument end with one person writing something like "you know what, you just made a good point. I think the view I started off this conversation with was wrong.".
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

tamdrin
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by tamdrin » Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:55 pm

Viscid wrote:I think the argument at the heart of this thread is whether or not the conditions into which one is born, including having mental and physical disabilities, are the consequence of actions done in past lives.

There's also the argument that 'hell' is either a realm one is reborn into after death, or a mental state people develop in the life they currently live.

Both arguments depend on how literal you want to take the suttas. The more conservative types will be more likely to argue that hellish mental realms that one is born into are a result of past immoral behaviour.

Buddha intended the Suttas teachings on unseen realms to be literally. Not believing them to be so in new fangled western dharma psychological mumbo jumbo.

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Aloka
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by Aloka » Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:26 pm


Buddha intended the Suttas teachings on unseen realms to be literally. Not believing them to be so in new fangled western dharma psychological mumbo jumbo.
Hi Tamdrin, I don't think Tibetan Buddhist lamas would like their teachings to be called "new fangled western dharma psychological mumbo jumbo"

Please check the following course at Kagyu Samye Ling, Scotland UK :
The Six Realms of Experience

Within the Buddhist teachings the six realms of existence are seen as six mind-states which are effectively six particular styles of imprisonment. As human beings we experience all these mind-states daily, although we may have a stronger tendency towards one than the others, depending on our habitual patterns.

The mind-states of mental confusion, fear, desire and anger are very familiar to everyone, as well as the pain caused both to oneself and others. During this course we will look at each of these six realms and styles of imprisonment as well as their remedies. Through meditation, compassion and mindfulness we learn how to transform these states into wisdom and skilful activity.

http://www.samyeling.org/index/samyelin ... Experience


:)

tamdrin
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by tamdrin » Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:31 pm

Aloka wrote:

Buddha intended the Suttas teachings on unseen realms to be literally. Not believing them to be so in new fangled western dharma psychological mumbo jumbo.
Hi Tamdrin, I don't think Tibetan Buddhist lamas would like their teachings to be called "new fangled western dharma psychological mumbo jumbo"

Please check the following course at Kagyu Samye Ling, Scotland UK :
The Six Realms of Experience

Within the Buddhist teachings the six realms of existence are seen as six mind-states which are effectively six particular styles of imprisonment. As human beings we experience all these mind-states daily, although we may have a stronger tendency towards one than the others, depending on our habitual patterns.

The mind-states of mental confusion, fear, desire and anger are very familiar to everyone, as well as the pain caused both to oneself and others. During this course we will look at each of these six realms and styles of imprisonment as well as their remedies. Through meditation, compassion and mindfulness we learn how to transform these states into wisdom and skilful activity.

http://www.samyeling.org/index/samyelin ... Experience


:)

Course leader "Lama Zangmo"-probably a western teacher. I guess Trungpa Rinpoche sometimes presented them as mental states. However in other places he made clear that they are also literal.

Get real folks if the 6 realms are just mental states there is no need to fear or practice Buddhism. I mean come on is the animal realm a mental state of a human being merely, no of course not it is an actual realm in which beings with a predominance of certain karmas take birth. Same goes for the hell, hungry ghost, demi god, and god realms..

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Aloka
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by Aloka » Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:49 pm

Lama Zangmo is a nun and completed a 12 year closed retreat before she began teaching, and she was taught by several high tulkus. The monastery she is holding the course at is run by a Tibetan abbot and a lineage tulku who approve of all the courses first.

Trungpa Rinpoche most certainly did present the realms as mental states and so do other Tibetans.

I assume you are a practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism yourself? If so I suggest you do a little more research.

Goodnight :anjali:
Last edited by Aloka on Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.

tamdrin
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by tamdrin » Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:51 pm

Yes .

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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:59 pm

Greetings tamdrin,

In that case, be sure also to check our Dharma Wheel (see my signature), if you wish to seek Vajrayana perspectives on the issues raised here.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

tamdrin
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by tamdrin » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:23 pm

Yes it could be that the Vajrayana'ists have a different interpretation of karma and its effects..

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retrofuturist
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:33 pm

Greetings,
tamdrin wrote:Yes it could be that the Vajrayana'ists have a different interpretation of karma and its effects..
Yes, from my experience in online discussions that is certainly the case. Theravada is towards the minimalist end of the spectrum which regards to its view on what are the products of kamma.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

tamdrin
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by tamdrin » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:36 pm

Then the problem is,while which view is the truth. Truth so often becomes truth because we adopt certain tenet systems to make it so..

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retrofuturist
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:40 pm

Greetings,
tamdrin wrote:Then the problem is,while which view is the truth. Truth so often becomes truth because we adopt certain tenet systems to make it so..
Indeed - my preference is to rely on the suttas here, though my views are also shaped by some lucid Theravadin bhikkhus who do/did present matters of kamma from a suttanta angle.

Regardless of preference though, all anyone can do is explain why from their POV, their presentation of kamma makes sense to them. Others may agree, others may not - others may contemplate what is said and compare it with their own understanding, others may not.

My preference to stick with the Buddha's words are because I doubt anyone post-Buddha understood kamma better that he, and that others post-Buddha may be prone to unfounded speculation and papanca on the subject of kamma and its effects.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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beeblebrox
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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by beeblebrox » Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:01 pm

tamdrin wrote:Yes but I wasn't looking for something from psychiatry I was looking for Buddhist perspectives on the condition.
I think it's a wrong use of the Buddha's teaching. It's for liberation... nothing more, nothing less. Use kamma only to get out. It's not a history lesson. Focus on taking out the arrow. Don't worry about how it got here. The proper kamma for someone who has schizophrenia would be to seek help for it.

:anjali:

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Re: karmic cause of schizophrenia

Post by Individual » Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:22 pm

tamdrin wrote:I asked Ven Pesala what the karmic cause of schizophrenia was and he said that drug and alchohol use was the cause. In certain situations it could apparently manifest in the same life. Do any of you know or have you seen reference in Buddha's teachings as to what can be the cause of mental illness?
I am a living example... unfortunately... :weep:
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra

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