Human reborn as Human

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Post Reply
Anicca
Posts: 393
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:11 am
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma

Re: Human reborn as Human

Post by Anicca » Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:43 pm

Alex123 wrote:When there is contradiction between what the Buddha has said and science, I take the Buddha to be correct by default.Maybe we shouldn't try to reinterpret what the "problem" (on Mt. Meru, geography, Other realms) suttas have said to fit with modern science, but reinterpret modern science to fit with Buddha Dhamma.
Oil and water - they don't mix.

metta

User avatar
cooran
Posts: 8502
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Human reborn as Human

Post by cooran » Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:45 pm

Hello all,


....Or maybe we ought to realise that the Buddha was talking in a conventional manner to a particular group of people, in a particular time.
He was using everyday language and phrases to communicate with them.
He wasn’t using language and phrases that would be understood when translated into another language by people living two thousand years in the future.

Referring to the dhamma, the Buddha said, “ehi passiko,” which means “come and see,” or “come and investigate,” not “come and believe.”

with metta
Chrs
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4718
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Human reborn as Human

Post by clw_uk » Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:48 pm

Anicca wrote:
clw_uk wrote:This is just starting to sound like a conspiracy theory now. There will be scientists with their own hypothesis and who will try to falsify the other scientists work, hence re-testing and peer review
Interesting history of falsehoods in science - From 1600 to 2011 - peaks in 2004 here

One of way too many examples - Investigating a Rash of SIDS Deaths, Exposing Infanticide
. .''FIRST, do no harm'' is a basic tenet of the medical profession. A new book, ''The Death of Innocents: A True Story of Murder, Medicine and High-Stakes Science'' by a husband-and-wife team of journalists, Richard Firstman and Jamie Talan, details case histories where physicians, blinded by ambition and dogma, colluded in the worst kind of harm -- the deaths of helpless, healthy babies.

The 632-page book, published by Bantam in September, documents how specialists in sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS) unwittingly provided cover-up for uncounted infanticides. By propagating faulty theories and methods of treatment, the doctors allowed child abuse to go undetected and unremedied.
...

The misdiagnosis of infanticide as SIDS ''happens all over,'' Ms. Talan, a medical reporter at Newsday, said. ''A lot of doctors and police don't know how to handle it. They don't take it as seriously as they should.''
...
The book recounts ''a sordid tale'' in ''spell-binding detail,'' wrote Jerold Lucey, editor of Pediatrics, who recommended in the October issue of the medical journal that all pediatricians read it. At the recent annual conference of the National Association of Medical Examiners, the keynote speaker, Dr. Vincent DiMaio, urged his colleagues to make it mandatory reading.
25 years of faulty theory. I am not anti-science. Just that science can be very imperfect, humans are humans. When I grew up, only certain rooms in hospitals were marked "non-smoking" as even the doctor was liable to "light up" in front of patients. And yes, that has been corrected.

Ajahn Mun grew up in Thailand at a time when monks were expected to only be social workers and school teachers. Nibbana was viewed as no longer realistic.
And yes, that has been corrected. :anjali:

Best to leave science to scientists - Buddha to Buddhism IMHO.

metta


Yet faulty theories are exposed, as was the biology of lysenko

No one is saying that science is perfect, however just because science doesnt know it all and can on occasion be distorted, doesnt mean we can then throw out scientific theories or claim that a religious leaders views are more reliable


The fact that the above situation occurred has no bearing on the fact of a spherical earth, this is the essential point

Best to leave science to scientists - Buddha to Buddhism IMHO
I agree and i am still not faced with an argument why Buddha knowing about Chemistry is essential for there to be liberation, i just dont see how that follows

As I see it Buddha could know sweet FA about chemistry but still know how dukkha arises
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4718
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Human reborn as Human

Post by clw_uk » Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:51 pm

Alex123 wrote:When there is contradiction between what the Buddha has said and science, I take the Buddha to be correct by default.

Maybe we shouldn't try to reinterpret what the "problem" (on Mt. Meru, geography, Other realms) suttas have said to fit with modern science, but reinterpret modern science to fit with Buddha Dhamma.

Which is nothing short of distorting science to fit your bias, which you have be warning us against in this whole thread


Starting to sound like hypocrisy to me


Ok to distort facts to fit Buddhism but not ok to distort facts to support Marxism (lysenko) or Christianity (creationism)
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4718
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Human reborn as Human

Post by clw_uk » Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:56 pm

cooran wrote:Hello all,


....Or maybe we ought to realise that the Buddha was talking in a conventional manner to a particular group of people, in a particular time.
He was using everyday language and phrases to communicate with them.
He wasn’t using language and phrases that would be understood when translated into another language by people living two thousand years in the future.

Referring to the dhamma, the Buddha said, “ehi passiko,” which means “come and see,” or “come and investigate,” not “come and believe.”

with metta
Chrs

I agree, which is why a strict literalistic reading of the Suttas is going to fail, since it doesnt take into account these other factors
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

Anicca
Posts: 393
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:11 am
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma

Re: Human reborn as Human

Post by Anicca » Sat Jan 01, 2011 11:05 pm

It is as Chris posted -
cooran wrote:....Or maybe we ought to realise that the Buddha was talking in a conventional manner to a particular group of people, in a particular time.
Regarding the Kalamas Sutta
"Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing, nor upon tradition, nor upon rumor, nor upon scripture, nor upon surmise, nor upon axiom, nor upon specious reasoning, nor upon bias toward a notion pondered over, nor upon another's seeming ability, nor upon the consideration 'The monk is our teacher.' When you yourselves know: 'These things are bad, blamable, censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,' abandon them... When you yourselves know: 'These things are good, blameless, praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,' enter on and abide in them."
Venerable Bodhi does it justice in "A Look at the Kalama Sutta" :
Now this passage, like everything else spoken by the Buddha, has been stated in a specific context — with a particular audience and situation in view — and thus must be understood in relation to that context.
... On the basis of a single passage, quoted out of context, the Buddha has been made out to be a pragmatic empiricist who dismisses all doctrine and faith, and whose Dhamma is simply a freethinker's kit to truth which invites each one to accept and reject whatever he likes. ...
metta

unspoken
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:41 pm
Location: Malaysia

Re: Human reborn as Human

Post by unspoken » Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:21 am

cooran wrote:Hello all,


....Or maybe we ought to realise that the Buddha was talking in a conventional manner to a particular group of people, in a particular time.
He was using everyday language and phrases to communicate with them.
He wasn’t using language and phrases that would be understood when translated into another language by people living two thousand years in the future.

Referring to the dhamma, the Buddha said, “ehi passiko,” which means “come and see,” or “come and investigate,” not “come and believe.”

with metta
Chrs

Cooran, I'm glad that we both share the same thoughts and same view.

True, and agreed. The Buddha having the ability to speak to the group of people with their kind of understanding, Using their language and their standpoint of view. They think that the earth is flat. But the Buddha understand that the world is or not flat, doesn't matter. Because in his teaching, salvation is the true thing that he would want to teach. And human like us, cling to those questions of is the earth flat or spherical... That's not the point!

To us the modern human being, would like things to be specific due to the evolution and existence of Science, which most of us will involve ourselves in it in our everyday life. The ancient ones they do not do it specifically and when the Buddha said about comparing the dirt of Thatagata palm and the dirt on the surface of earth, ancient people will think its as very very rare, nothing else. But modern people will go it to the complex level, take it literally and measures the area of the Buddha's palm??? Oh please....

As I were saying, sutta is merely a reference in our journey, as if when we got lost in the jungle.
We can take reference of the ancient map, the geographical surface of the jungle will change, we cannot rely on ancient maps to continue the journey because the accuracy of the map is for the ancient time.

With Metta and Understanding :thumbsup:

User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 3476
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Human reborn as Human

Post by Alex123 » Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:55 pm

clw_uk wrote: Which is nothing short of distorting science to fit your bias, which you have be warning us against in this whole thread
Are you saying that scientists are always unbiased?

Isn't it possible that 5 hindrances fit the data to suit one's desires or opinions about the way the things should be?


I guess you trust the imperfect scientists more than the Buddha:
clw_uk wrote: No one is saying that science is perfect, however just because science doesnt know it all and can on occasion be distorted, doesnt mean we can then throw out scientific theories or claim that a religious leaders views are more reliable


There is an important key issue. What do we do when experience contradicts what the Buddha has said? Do we trust this experience or the Buddha? Do we value our own ignorant perceptions or the Buddha's Awakened perceptions? According to which standard do we determine what is true and what is false?

If we can reject certain of the Buddha's teachings because we do not consider them to be true, then on that occasion we value our own ideas more than His.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4718
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Human reborn as Human

Post by clw_uk » Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:06 pm

Are you saying that scientists are always unbiased?

Isn't it possible that 5 hindrances fit the data to suit one's desires or opinions about the way the things should be?
Once again getting that terrible feeling that you dont actually read what the other person said, did I not give you the example of Lysenko?


If we did what you suggest, manipulate science to fit with (your) perceived notion of Buddhism, then that would be bias and would be changing the data to fit your ideology, which is no different to Christian Creationism or Stalinist Lysenkoism


It would also mean your were being somewhat of a hypocrit, since you preach against the dangers of science being bias but then ask for it to be bias in relation to your ideology, which sounds like special pleading again


Why not let science do science and keep personal ideologies out of it?


I guess you trust the imperfect scientists more than the Buddha:

It is only either or for you, does not apply to me so this is your problem
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

nobody12345
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:05 am

Re: Human reborn as Human

Post by nobody12345 » Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:24 pm

Virgo wrote:Hello, people born in other realms such as hell, hungry ghosts, deva realms, etc. can be reborn as humans based on some past good kamma, this means there will always be people being born into the human realm. What the Buddha seems to be saying is that most humans go to the lower realms after they die because of generating negative kamma, that is all. Taken altogher, this doesn't mean that the human population must decrease.

Kevin
Agreed.
Many devas will fall from grace and rebirth in our realm.
Many devas do UNmeritorous deeds because they are quite delusional regarding their life span (i.e. mortality).

User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 5579
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: Human reborn as Human

Post by Aloka » Sun Jan 02, 2011 5:53 pm

imaginos wrote: Agreed.
Many devas will fall from grace and rebirth in our realm.
Many devas do UNmeritorous deeds because they are quite delusional regarding their life span (i.e. mortality).
Hi imaginos,

Do you have some first hand experience of devas and their unmeritorous deeds and delusions?

kind wishes,

Aloka

nobody12345
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:05 am

Re: Human reborn as Human

Post by nobody12345 » Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:11 pm

Aloka wrote:
imaginos wrote: Agreed.
Many devas will fall from grace and rebirth in our realm.
Many devas do UNmeritorous deeds because they are quite delusional regarding their life span (i.e. mortality).
Hi imaginos,

Do you have some first hand experience of devas and their delusions?

kind wishes,

Aloka
Hi Aloka.
Before I became a Buddhist, I was a practicing magician.
I started study various religions and spirituality when I was 18~19 years old (now I am 39) and that lead me to magic(k) and occult as well.
And let me tell you, some of the spritiual entities are quite delusional.
Some of them actually believe that they are super power and will not die and etc.
(Many of magical workings involved with the process of invocation and evocation of spiritual entities)
The sad part is, while a magician gaining more experience in magic(k), he or she will be more involved and bounded to that particular realm of the existence.
I became a Buddhist because I found myself do not want to get involved with any of realm of existence whatsoever.
What is the meaning of going to the realm level 'XX' and then millions years later, come back to lower realm and suffer over and over again?
That did not make any sense to me.
From we, the earthling's point of view, millions of years might sound great but in the context of endless Samsara, it is just a blink of an eye.
So I gave up magic although there are very enticing aspects to it.
Devas can't even hold a candle to the awakened one, our kind teacher.
All the maps and fancy tricks devas offer means nothing to the ultimate map (the Dhamma) that our teacher offered.
In Metta.

User avatar
son of dhamma
Posts: 131
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:09 am
Location: Ponce de Leon Springs, Fl
Contact:

Re: Human reborn as Human

Post by son of dhamma » Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:24 pm

I deeply appreciate your offering of practical experience, Imaginos. :anjali:
That is very helpful experience to have in one's lifetime.
with metta
Sometimes no Buddhas arise in the world. Sometimes they do. When it happens, it is for the welfare and happiness of men, out of compassion for all creatures. For a long, long time he has been working to become a Buddha. He met other Buddhas along the way. And after his long striving he attains his final life, yet not without showing everyone else how to get there.

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4718
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Human reborn as Human

Post by clw_uk » Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:29 pm

imaginos wrote:
Aloka wrote:
imaginos wrote: Agreed.
Many devas will fall from grace and rebirth in our realm.
Many devas do UNmeritorous deeds because they are quite delusional regarding their life span (i.e. mortality).
Hi imaginos,

Do you have some first hand experience of devas and their delusions?

kind wishes,

Aloka
Hi Aloka.
Before I became a Buddhist, I was a practicing magician.
I started study various religions and spirituality when I was 18~19 years old (now I am 39) and that lead me to magic(k) and occult as well.
And let me tell you, some of the spritiual entities are quite delusional.
Some of them actually believe that they are super power and will not die and etc.
(Many of magical workings involved with the process of invocation and evocation of spiritual entities)
The sad part is, while a magician gaining more experience in magic(k), he or she will be more involved and bounded to that particular realm of the existence.
I became a Buddhist because I found myself do not want to get involved with any of realm of existence whatsoever.
What is the meaning of going to the realm level 'XX' and then millions years later, come back to lower realm and suffer over and over again?
That did not make any sense to me.
From we, the earthling's point of view, millions of years might sound great but in the context of endless Samsara, it is just a blink of an eye.
So I gave up magic although there are very enticing aspects to it.
Devas can't even hold a candle to the awakened one, our kind teacher.
All the maps and fancy tricks devas offer means nothing to the ultimate map (the Dhamma) that our teacher offered.
In Metta.

So you actually seen other realms and magic exists?
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

nobody12345
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:05 am

Re: Human reborn as Human

Post by nobody12345 » Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:41 am

clw_uk wrote:
So you actually seen other realms and magic exists?
I have seen two realms/dimensions very briefly.
And magic can work only when all the conditions are right.
Even the best magicians fail most of times.
However, in a long run, magic is always bad for the practitioner because it tends to increase the delusion of magician.
Magic binds people closer to Samsara.
Dhamma leads people beyond Samsara.
So Dhamma is trillion times more beneficial than magic ever was or ever will be.

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4718
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Human reborn as Human

Post by clw_uk » Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:54 am

imaginos wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
So you actually seen other realms and magic exists?
I have seen two realms/dimensions very briefly.
And magic can work only when all the conditions are right.
Even the best magicians fail most of times.
However, in a long run, magic is always bad for the practitioner because it tends to increase the delusion of magician.
Magic binds people closer to Samsara.
Dhamma leads people beyond Samsara.
So Dhamma is trillion times more beneficial than magic ever was or ever will be.

So what is this magic, what could you do?
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

nobody12345
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:05 am

Re: Human reborn as Human

Post by nobody12345 » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:22 am

clw_uk wrote:
imaginos wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
So you actually seen other realms and magic exists?
I have seen two realms/dimensions very briefly.
And magic can work only when all the conditions are right.
Even the best magicians fail most of times.
However, in a long run, magic is always bad for the practitioner because it tends to increase the delusion of magician.
Magic binds people closer to Samsara.
Dhamma leads people beyond Samsara.
So Dhamma is trillion times more beneficial than magic ever was or ever will be.

So what is this magic, what could you do?
Magic contains many different types of workings.
I tried many types and most of workings (more than 90%, I say), I failed.
Also I had wide interest in various dimensions but whenever I tried channeling to the other side, mostly I failed. (I only had glimpsed two realms/dimensions briefly in my life)
However, one particular practice that was working well for me was Tarot reading.
At my best, I had 90%+ accuracy for a couple of months.
Some of the reading were very very detailed and thorough.
The really funny thing is when I developed dependency of relying on Tarot reading, things started going south.
Also I found out that it's not just me but all the others had similar problem.
When someone starts magic, sooner or later, he or she will find out one or two workings he or she is particularily good at.
But when he or she develops dependency, it always goes south and stops working.
Don't ask me why because I am just reporting what I observed.
In a way, it is very similar with drug addiction because at first, drug seems to be cool but when you develop dependency, everything goes south.
And the most dangerous magic is channeling because it develops very strong attachment to particular realm.
Anyway, it's the best to stay away from them altogether.
Last edited by nobody12345 on Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4718
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Human reborn as Human

Post by clw_uk » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:27 am

Magic contains many different types of workings.
I tried many types and most of workings (more than 90%, I say), I failed.
Ok so they dont work
Also I had wide interest in various dimensions but whenever I tried channeling to the other side, mostly I failed. (I only had glimpsed two realms/dimensions briefly)
What did it look like etc?
However, one particular practice that was working well for me was Tarot reading.
At my best, I had 90%+ accuracy for a couple of months.
Some of the reading were very very detailed and thorough.
The really funny thing is when I developed dependency of relying on Tarot reading, things started going south.
Also I found out that it's not just me but all the others had similar problem.
Wasnt Tarot just a card game originally...
When someone starts magic, sooner or later, he or she will find out one or two workings he or she is particularily good at.
But when he or she develops dependency, it always goes south and stops working.
Don't ask me why because I am just reporting what I observed.
So what is "magic"?
In a way, it is very similar with drug addiction because at first, drug seems to be cool but when you developed dependency, everything goes south.
Anyway, it's the best to stay away from them altogether.
And the most dangerous magic is channeling because it develops very strong attachment to particular realm.
imaginos

To me it seems strong attachment to superstition, but I could be wrong...
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

Kenshou
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Human reborn as Human

Post by Kenshou » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:29 am

I would think that if 90% of the time it didn't work, you would have good reason to be awfully suspicious that you might be fooling yourself the other 10% of the time. And with something like Tarot reading you're bound to get something right every now and then just by sheer chance.
Last edited by Kenshou on Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4718
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Human reborn as Human

Post by clw_uk » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:31 am

Kenshou wrote:I would think that if 90% of the time it didn't work, you would have good reason to be awfully suspicious that you might be fooling yourself the other 10% of the time. And with something like Tarot reading your bound to get something right every now and then just by sheer chance.


Thats even if the Tarot means anything, like I said it seems to have just been a card game originally...
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: arpansharma1, Mr Man, Will and 52 guests