Samatha Vs Vipassana. What is needed for Stream-Entry?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Samatha Vs Vipassana. What is needed for Stream-Entry?

Post by Alex123 » Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:12 pm

Hello all,

1. Samādhi and sati are not absolutely required for stream entry.
Suppabuddha the Leper became Stream-Enterer while he heard the Buddha for the first time. As a Stream-Enterer he acquired these qualities Confidence (saddhaṃ), Virtue(sīlaṃ), Hearing/Learning (sutaṃ), Relinquishment (cāgaṃ), Wisdom (paññaṃ). Samādhi and even sati was not one of them. So if he could do it, others can as well. -Ud 5.3

2. Wisdom (paññā) cuts off unwholesome qualities. –Snp 5.1
3. Concentration is not the essence. - SN22.88 (6) Assaji sutta
4. Jhāna is justpleasant abiding here and nowthat does not efface things like wrong view. -MN8
5. Reaching 4 Jhanas, is no guarantee that one will not be tempted by sensual pleasures. - AN 6.60 (AN VI,6,6)

Thus the debate is over. The necessary qualities for stream entry according to the suttas are:
Confidence (saddhaṃ), Virtue(sīlaṃ), Hearing/Learning (sutaṃ), Relinquishment (cāgaṃ), Wisdom (paññaṃ)

Samādhi is not required for stream-entry. I hope that this will settle the great Samatha Vs Vipassana debate.

With the destruction of the first three fetters, he is a stream-winner, not subject to states of deprivation, headed for self-awakening for sure."…
But on encountering the Dhamma & Discipline made known by the Tathagata, he acquired conviction, virtue, learning, relinquishment, & discernment ... .than.html" onclick=";return false;

Whatever streams there are in the world: their blocking is mindfulness, mindfulness is their restraint — I tell you with discernment (paññā) they're finally stopped.
[According to the Culaniddesa (Nd.II), the streams that "flow every which way" are the streams of craving, views, conceit, defilement, corruption, and ignorance that flow out the six sense media.] ... .than.html" onclick=";return false;

Those recluses and brahmins, Assaji, who regard concentration as the essence, who identify concentration with recluseship, failing to obtain concentration might think, ‘Let us not fall away!’” - SN22.88 (6) Assaji Ven.BB Trans.

"It may be, Cunda, that some monk, detached from sense-objects, detached from unsalutary ideas, enters into the first absorption that is born of detachment, accompanied by thought-conception and discursive thinking, and filled with rapture and joy, and he then might think: 'I am abiding in effacement.' But in the Noble One's discipline it is not these [attainments] that are called 'effacement'; in the Noble One's discipline they are called 'abidings in ease here and now ... .nypo.html" onclick=";return false;

a certain person secluded from sensual desires ... re ... attains to the fourth higher state of mind. Thinking I am the gainer of the fourth higher state of mind [Jhāna] he mixes up with the bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, lay disciples male and female. kings and the ministers of kings, with those of other faiths and their disciples. Abiding with that association, diffused and engaged in talk, the mind touched with greed and corrupted he would give up the holy life and come to low life.
6. Hatthisariputtasuttaṃ - Venerable Hatthisariputta ... ggo-e.html" onclick=";return false;

With metta,

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: Samatha Vs Vipassana. What is needed for Stream-Entry?

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:32 pm

Hi Alex, Bhikkhu Bodhi has an extensive analysis of this point here:

The Jhānas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pāli Suttas
Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi" onclick=";return false;

Here is part of his conclusion:
(3) A number of texts on stream-enterers and once-returners imply that they do not possess the jhānas as meditative attainments which they can enter at will. Though it is obvious that disciples at the lower two levels may have jhānic attainments, the latter are not declared to be an integral part of their spiritual equipment.

(4) Several non-returners in the Nikāyas claim to possess all four jhānas, and according to the Mahāmāluṅkya Sutta, attainment of at least the first jhāna is part of the practice leading to the eradication of the five lower fetters. It thus seems likely that stream-enterers and once-returners desirous of advancing to non-returnership in that very same life must attain at least the first jhāna as a basis for developing insight. Those content with their status, prepared to let the "law of the Dhamma" take its course, generally will not strive to attain the jhānas. Instead, they settle for the assurance that they are bound to reach the final goal within a maximum of seven more lives passed in the human and celestial worlds.

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Re: Samatha Vs Vipassana. What is needed for Stream-Entry?

Post by Individual » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:15 pm

As I understand it:
  • No foolishly thinking about or falsely perceiving self in things
  • No doubt or lack of self-confidence (need faith in the Buddha and self-esteem)
  • No philosophy, ideology, religion, deity worship, esoteric beliefs, or superstitions
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra

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Re: Samatha Vs Vipassana. What is needed for Stream-Entry?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:27 am

Alex123 wrote:Thus the debate is over.
Geez, Alex, I thought you could figure out that one for yourself. Since there is no choice, it doesn't matter.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Samatha Vs Vipassana. What is needed for Stream-Entry?

Post by Hanzze » Sun Nov 21, 2010 4:03 am

Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step"

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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