The problem is the way you say they operate; there is no choice, which means no kamma or moral responsibility.Alex123 wrote:tiltbillings wrote: Which means, according to hard determinism stance, there is no choice. No choice, no kamma, no moral responsibility.
There is choice, kamma, and moral responsibility. The way in which they operate is what I disagree with.
As I have already said - repeatedly -, the determining factor/condition is that of the act of choosing. You really do not read what I write.tiltbillings wrote:
The point is, if there is choice, at the moment of choosing the conditions do not determine the outcome in a dead mechanical causality of a leaf being blown about the ground by the wind as you advocate.
So the choice is indeterminate, since there are no conditions that determine it. Right?
Wrong, as usual.Following that line of logic, things can appear out of nowhere, randomly, not due to any cause. Even in this case there is no free will. Stuff just happens due to no-cause.
Sure. At the moment of choosing this could be chosen or that could be chosen. Each are viably possible at that moment. Conditioning may influence a predeliction in one direction, but that via other conditiuoning can be resisted and another option chosen. Conditioning does not dictate what will happen next. If is was a dictation, it would not be a choice.tiltbillings wrote:What I have said is that at time of choosing, if there is choice, that must mean that there that the conditions in play are such that a number of conditioned options are viably possible to be chosen.
Those condition condition the choice. The conditions condition the viable options. The choice happens in the only way that it ever possibly could occur given its conditions (such as Paññā and Avijjā, and other conditions).
I have no idea hat you mean by choice or options other than for you choice is naught more than domino C falling because it was hit by domino B. We are not dominoes, we are not a dead mechanical causilty of a leaf blown about the ground by the winds.