Arahants Tears

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4718
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Arahants Tears

Post by clw_uk » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:11 pm

Man, I can't believe it can be so difficult for anyone to get what I am saying.
I understand what your saying I just see arahants differently to you friend :namaste:
Are you saying that the great teachers and accomplished in the Noble Sangha who I have known aren't allowed to be expressive at all? Not even for my benefit can they share a smile or a laugh? You can have them then, your robot arahants and be like them if you wish. I will look for free men, they were men first like me and they will appear to me as men like me if at all.

I didnt say that they werent allowed to be expressive, but I do not hold that they would engage in crying in relation to desire and aversion.

Metta
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

nathan
Posts: 692
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:11 am

Re: Arahants Tears

Post by nathan » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:20 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Man, I can't believe it can be so difficult for anyone to get what I am saying.
I understand what your saying I just see arahants differently to you friend :namaste:

I didnt say that they werent allowed to be expressive, but I do not hold that they would engage in crying in relation to desire and aversion.

Metta
I don't see why you need to at all if you get what I say and you allow for free human expression with the purest intentions within the limited means we have for communicating as human beings. I think that will go further to recognizing them. But in any case, in your eyes, when you do see them let us know so I can come see them also. I think we all need to see them.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

User avatar
bodom
Posts: 6266
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Arahants Tears

Post by bodom » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:27 pm

nathan wrote:Are you saying that the great teachers and accomplished in the Noble Sangha who I have known aren't allowed to be expressive at all? Not even for my benefit can they share a smile or a laugh?
I read a sutta in the Samyutta Nikaya last night in which the Buddha smiled at a devata.

1. 4. 5.

(35) Ujjhànasa��ino Ý Gods Taking Offence

1. I heard thus. Once the Blessed One lived in Sàvatthi, in Jeta's grove in the monastery offered by Anàthapiõóika.

2. When the night was waning a large number of deities with the perception of taking offence, approached the Blessed One, illuminating the whole of Jeta's grove stood in mid air.

3. One of those deities said this stanza in the presence of the Blessed One:

Appeasement of the self, is one thing, it's declared in another way,
It is deceit and fraud, like partaking a stolen meal.
Whatever you do, say that, do not say what you do not do
The wise know those, who say what they do not do.

Just by saying, or by listening only, it is not possible,
To step out, other than by following this difficult method
The wise, by concentrating find release from the bonds of death.
Merely by knowing the ways of the world, it is not possible,
The wise ones knowing it cross the diffused ness of the world.

4. Then those deities descended to earth, put their tops down at the feet of the Blessed One and said: ßVenerable sir, pardon us, we have fallen to an offence owing to our demerit and ignorance. Without thinking we have hurt the Blessed One. May the Blessed One accept our pardon for our future restrain.

5. The Blessed One smiled.

http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ggo-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

nathan
Posts: 692
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:11 am

Re: Arahants Tears

Post by nathan » Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:07 am

There is no question of an arahant giving rise to grief about the aggregates or the world. Abandoning all that of is an arahant and we don't need the crying at the Buddha's funeral to define this. If there is a question then it is why would an arahant produce a tear? Never? I don't think that is at all reasonable.

Suppose an arahant, mindful, fully released and dwelling in equanimity has a gnat fly un-mindfully into his eye. And the arahant, noting the unpleasant sensation produces and releases a tear which frees the ignorant and heedless gnat caught in that eye. Should this not be possible? Should the arahant's body do otherwise for some reason?
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

Heavenstorm
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:37 am

Re: Arahants Tears

Post by Heavenstorm » Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:23 pm

There are also tears of joy, tears of amazement............ Why don't you guys read the article pinned earlier by Elohim? It was from a famed Thai Arahant criticizing those ignorant people who think that Arahants never wept and out of ignorance, spreading lies and slandering the poor monk for doing so earlier in one of His talks.

User avatar
Jechbi
Posts: 1268
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:38 am
Contact:

Re: Arahants Tears

Post by Jechbi » Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:07 pm

I read the article (some of it any way). It seems a little weird, especially the part where he invites people to crawl out of their toilet holes. Maybe it's just a teaching-style thing.

I think it's worth noting that there are some things an arahant can't do, such as acting out of ill will toward another. The reason is that getting to the state of arahantship involves extinguishing certain elements of personality that are common to every ordinary (worlding) human being on the planet. Once those bits and pieces are gone, they are truly cut off and gone. That's my understanding of the teaching, any way. So an arahant can't act out of ignorance, or out of ill will, or out of greed, for example. The arahant no longer has the capacity for these things.

What does that have to do with crying? Maybe not a whole lot. Sure, the tear ducts will still function, and if a fly lands in an arahant's eye, there's no reason to think that a normal bodily function would not occur (at least I don't think there's any reason). But I don't think that's what we're talking about.

This discussion seems to have to do with how we perceive ourselves when we cry. I don't think it matters what an arahant would or would not do. But I think it's worth considering how we react to ourselves when we cry, and how we react to others when they cry. Does that reaction stem from ignorance, or from wisdom?

:cry: :smile:
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

mountain
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:40 am

Re: Arahants Tears

Post by mountain » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:15 pm

Jechbi,
I agree that the question relates to our attitudes towards tears and crying. I feel honored when others share their tears. For myself tears are a wonderful solvent that dissolve knots in the heart. I am not sure if an arahant would cry or not.

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4718
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Arahants Tears

Post by clw_uk » Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:41 pm

There are also tears of joy, tears of amazement
Yes but the arahant would not engage in these, joy would be to delight which would kick dependent origination back into action and back into samsara and dukkha.

Delight, craving, clinging, becoming, birth, ageing and death, dukkha.

If an arahant cries because a fly gets into his eye well yes this would happen because its a natural bodily reaction.

:namaste:
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

User avatar
jcsuperstar
Posts: 1915
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:15 am
Location: alaska
Contact:

Re: Arahants Tears

Post by jcsuperstar » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:14 am

from what i remember ananada who was not an arahant cried when the buddha died and mahakasyapa who was an arahant scolded him for this, the arhants that studied directly under the buddha seem to think there is something wrong with crying. i dont feel like looking it up but i bet the best way to find out about this is to look at angulimala and mogglana both were treated pretty badly and killed, see if they are mentioned as crying and there you should find your answer if an arahant can cry
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

Heavenstorm
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:37 am

Re: Arahants Tears

Post by Heavenstorm » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:33 pm

clw_uk wrote:
There are also tears of joy, tears of amazement
Yes but the arahant would not engage in these, joy would be to delight which would kick dependent origination back into action and back into samsara and dukkha.
You should read the article in the previous post, the Arahant talked about it.
I read the article (some of it any way). It seems a little weird, especially the part where he invites people to crawl out of their toilet holes. Maybe it's just a teaching-style thing.
Arya Saints see samara as cesspool. Its not unusual.

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4718
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Arahants Tears

Post by clw_uk » Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:51 pm

You should read the article in the previous post, the Arahant talked about it.
I dont know if he is an Arahant
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

User avatar
bodom
Posts: 6266
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Arahants Tears

Post by bodom » Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:54 pm

clw_uk wrote:
You should read the article in the previous post, the Arahant talked about it.
I dont know if he is an Arahant
Venerable Ajahn Maha Bua (born August 12, 1914), (commonly known in Thai as หลวงตามหาบัว, Luang Ta Maha Bua;​ alternate spelling Ajahn Maha Boowa) is the common name for Pra Dharma Visuthimongkol (Thai: พระธรรมวิสุทธิมงคล​), a revered Buddhist monk. "Ajahn" (or "Acharn"), meaning "teacher," is the common honorific for Thai monks, similar to "Bhikkhu" or "Rishi" in other Buddhist traditions. Ajahn Maha Bua is one of the best known Thai Buddhist monks of the late Twentieth and early Twenty-first centuries. He is widely regarded as an Arahat — a living Buddhist saint. He was a disciple of the esteemed forest master Ajahn Mun Bhuridatta, and is now himself considered a master in the Thai Forest Tradition.[1]

http://www.buddhanet.net/masters/mahaboowa.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luang_Ta_Maha_Bua" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4718
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Arahants Tears

Post by clw_uk » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:06 pm

I know he is thought of as one but that doesnt mean I should believe it just because others do, i have never even met him.

:namaste:
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

User avatar
bodom
Posts: 6266
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Arahants Tears

Post by bodom » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:07 pm

clw_uk wrote:I know he is thought of as one but that doesnt mean I should believe it just because others do, i have never even met him.

:namaste:
Have you ever met the Buddha?
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4718
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Arahants Tears

Post by clw_uk » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:09 pm

Yes I have, through his dhamma.
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot] and 61 guests