Arahants Tears

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Ceisiwr
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Arahants Tears

Post by Ceisiwr »

This is something that was raised in a different thread that I thought would be quite interesting to discuss.

Can/Would an Arahant Cry?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Tex
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Re: Arahants Tears

Post by Tex »

I'm sure an arahant could cry.

But I can't imagine than an arahant would cry. I think the full realization of upekkha would prevent one from being moved to tears by pain, sadness, joy, etc.

But I could be wrong.
"To reach beyond fear and danger we must sharpen and widen our vision. We have to pierce through the deceptions that lull us into a comfortable complacency, to take a straight look down into the depths of our existence, without turning away uneasily or running after distractions." -- Bhikkhu Bodhi

"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man." -- Heraclitus
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Jason
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Re: Arahants Tears

Post by Jason »

clw_uk,
clw_uk wrote:This is something that was raised in a different thread that I thought would be quite interesting to discuss.

Can/Would an Arahant Cry?
See chapter 3 (How Can an Arahant Shed Tears?, pg 86-94) of Ajahn Maha Boowa's Arahattamagga.

Jason
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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Heavenstorm
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Re: Arahants Tears

Post by Heavenstorm »

clw_uk wrote:This is something that was raised in a different thread that I thought would be quite interesting to discuss.

Can/Would an Arahant Cry?
Yes, Arahant are still humans after all and as a result of their compassion arising from their enlightened state.
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Cittasanto
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Re: Arahants Tears

Post by Cittasanto »

I have been thinking on this, and unless they were cutting onions I doubt they would cry, at least over emotional worldly things, as it says in the Satipatthana sutta
For the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress
ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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adeh
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Re: Arahants Tears

Post by adeh »

"And those monks who had not yet overcome their passions wept, tore their hair, raising their arms, throwing themselves down and twisting and turning, crying: 'All too soon the Blessed Lord has passed away, all too soon the Well-Farer has passed away, all too soon the Eye of the World has disappeared!' But those monks who were free from craving endured mindfully and clearly aware, saying: 'All compounded things are impermanent-what is the use of this?'
Then the Venerable Anuruddha said: 'Friends, enough of your weeping and wailing! Has not the Lord already told you that all things that are pleasant and delightful are changeable, subject to separation and to becoming another? So why all this, friends? Whatever is born, become, compounded is subject to decay, it cannot be that it does not decay.' " Mahaaparinibbaana Sutta 16; 6.10. Digha Nikaaya.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Arahants Tears

Post by Ceisiwr »

Thank you Adeh I think that shows quite nicely how arahants would not cry.

:namaste:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
nathan
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Re: Arahants Tears

Post by nathan »

I have to agree, what arahant needs tears who has no cause in the world for tears? Still an arahant may give tears as a gift should it communicate the dhamma. No? Who among us can judge an arahant? I know what all things should mean to an arahant but I do not know the range of their acts. Whatever they are we should be somehow blessed by it. So I see that something is quite certain here about having let go, but letting go as much to not giving tears as to giving tears, just not for oneself. From an arahants peace, looking at us and the world, would not tears be a gift of clear seeing?

Just turning this around for a closer inspection, what do you think? Certainly upon the death of the Buddha, of all men, how can there be cause for tears? This is his triumph and our aspiration. But in looking at those lost in being and becoming there is much to inspire tears.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Jechbi
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Re: Arahants Tears

Post by Jechbi »

Interesting topic. I think it's safe to assume an arahant would not cry for any of the ordinary reasons that you or I might cry. So would an arahant laugh?

Bottom line is that we can speculate all we want, but probably there's something important that we won't understand until we ourselves are fully liberated. At that point, what source could there be for tears? (Besides ducts, I mean. :smile: )

Metta
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: Arahants Tears

Post by nathan »

It is an interesting topic. Communicating in person is not just about words but real direct two way understandings. We relate to tears, laughter and feelings as much as we do to thoughts and words when we communicate. And if tears communicated the message of the dhamma to the people in a profound way at one place and time and if later it was noted along with the many other notations in the many histories of accomplished Noble disciples then we need not make more of it than it is. It is like a koan though in a way. For us. Paradoxical. Arresting the mind. Pointing out other kinds of agitation and attachment to views or expansive possibilities for insights, compassion and equanimity to arise.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Arahants Tears

Post by Ceisiwr »

How do you propose tears can help teach the dhamma?

To cry is to act either with aversion of delight which the arahant has abandonded.

With Metta

:namaste:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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bodom
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Re: Arahants Tears

Post by bodom »

clw_uk wrote:How do you propose tears can help teach the dhamma?

To cry is to act either with aversion of delight which the arahant has abandonded.

With Metta

:namaste:
Just as a solid rock is not shaken by the storm, even so the wise are not affected
by praise or blame. (Dhp. 81)

Everywhere, indeed, good persons "let go."
The good ones do not occasion talk, hankering for pleasure.
Touched now by ease and now by misery,
The wise manifest no high and low. (Dhp. 83)

He who, having cast off likes and dislikes, has become tranquil, is rid of the substrata of existence
and like a hero has conquered all the worlds — him do I call a holy man. (Dhp. 418)



:namaste:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
nathan
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Re: Arahants Tears

Post by nathan »

clw_uk wrote:How do you propose tears can help teach the dhamma?

To cry is to act either with aversion of delight which the arahant has abandonded.

With Metta

:namaste:
How can you be so certain what it is an act of? Why should an arahant not have all the capacities of a full human being? Why they act at all is imponderable to all but arahants. So I do not judge any who are seen to be so in such a way that I have to presume their motives. How can I really discern this unless I am an arahant? This is not getting drunk and smashing a car. It is not an offense against anyone. Are they really free if they are not freer than we are? Geez. Of all things to criticize. Not because they are effected but because they can affect us. Tears are something we can understand.
:hug:
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Arahants Tears

Post by Ceisiwr »

Its not an offence against anyone but as an arahant sees clearly, there would be no need for one to cry through pain or pleasure.

Arahants are still human in a physical sense but not in the mind, humans experience pleasure and pain mentally as well as physically, arahants do not feel mental dukkha.

:namaste:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
nathan
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Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:11 am

Re: Arahants Tears

Post by nathan »

Its not about an arahants need to feel happy or sad it is about what gets his message accross. It is about what the hearer will feel. How we relate to expressions about profound changes in thinking and feeling. Vedana, feeling is central to the path. What we feel, in relation to ourselves, to dhamma, to everything. You can communicate all kinds of feeling in all kinds of ways. Man, I can't believe it can be so difficult for anyone to get what I am saying. Are you saying that the great teachers and accomplished in the Noble Sangha who I have known aren't allowed to be expressive at all? Not even for my benefit can they share a smile or a laugh? You can have them then, your robot arahants and be like them if you wish. I will look for free men, they were men first like me and they will appear to me as men like me if at all.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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