Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Sanghamitta
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Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Post by Sanghamitta » Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:18 am

[ EDIT: Moderator note - this topic was split from the "something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval" topic - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6052" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - Thanks. Retro.]

As Retro has correctly pointed out I have dragged the thread off topic. That was not my intention...so I will leave it there.
I will add that I think that the whole concept of "ariyas" is a later insertion into the early narratives, and an indicator of the Sangha's institutionalisation.
But this is not the place for that discussion.

:anjali:
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Kenshou » Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:33 pm

Sanghamitta wrote:I will add that I think that the whole concept of "ariyas" is a later insertion into the early narratives, and an indicator of the Sangha's institutionalisation. But this is not the place for that discussion.
At risk of derailing the thread, I would be interested in knowing the grounds for that idea. I've seen it around now and then but never with any sources (not to imply that you don't have any). I'm simply curious, is all. Maybe a new thread is in order to prevent this one from rupturing.

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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by BlackBird » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:16 pm

Kenshou wrote:Maybe a new thread is in order to prevent this one from rupturing.
Very good idea :)
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:22 pm

And now we have it.

:geek:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Post by BlackBird » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:32 pm

Sanghamitta wrote:As Retro has correctly pointed out I have dragged the thread off topic. That was not my intention...so I will leave it there.
I will add that I think that the whole concept of "ariyas" is a later insertion into the early narratives, and an indicator of the Sangha's institutionalisation.
So if Ariyas are out, does that mean the characteristics that define them - stream entry, once returner, non-returner and arahant are also out?
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks

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Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:37 pm

Greetings,

And further to Jack's question, is this to suggest that records of the Buddha labelling himself "the arahant" are fabricated? Did he in fact find the path to, and achieve the cessation of dukkha?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Post by Individual » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:50 pm

According to Sanghamitta, this is a discussion that doesn't belong here. If that's true, I guess it's OK to give an opinion that doesn't belong here.

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Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Post by Ben » Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:06 pm

Sanghamitta wrote: I will add that I think that the whole concept of "ariyas" is a later insertion into the early narratives, and an indicator of the Sangha's institutionalisation.
Hi Valerie

What an interesting thought! I would be very interested in reading your thoughts on the matter with supporting documentary evidence.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
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in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Post by Paññāsikhara » Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:01 am

Sanghamitta wrote:[ EDIT: Moderator note - this topic was split from the "something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval" topic - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6052" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - Thanks. Retro.]

As Retro has correctly pointed out I have dragged the thread off topic. That was not my intention...so I will leave it there.
I will add that I think that the whole concept of "ariyas" is a later insertion into the early narratives, and an indicator of the Sangha's institutionalisation.
But this is not the place for that discussion.

:anjali:
That is quite a claim to make. May I ask the basis for the notion that "that the whole concept of "ariyas" is a later insertion into the early narratives"? For example, philological analysis of which texts? Source of the insertion (from non-Buddhist thought, etc.)?
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.

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Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Post by Sanghamitta » Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:41 am

I object strongly to this. A post I made had been lifted out of context and re posted as if from me to start an entirely new thread without such much as a by your leave, or any discussion with me. I think that is sleight of hand, and in fact dishonest.
You chat about it among yourselves lads. Its nothing to do with me.
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Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Post by Phra Chuntawongso » Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:50 am

Sanghamitta wrote:I object strongly to this. A post I made had been lifted out of context and re posted as if from me to start an entirely new thread without such much as a by your leave, or any discussion with me. I think that is sleight of hand, and in fact dishonest.
You chat about it among yourselves lads. Its nothing to do with me.
Perhaps you could let us know the context in which it was stated and we can take it from there.
I do not believe that any sleight of hand or dishonesty would be the intention here.
So come on gives us the context and who knows this could turn out to be a great discussion here. :coffee:
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Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Post by Kenshou » Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:09 am

Sanghamitta-

On one hand, I do not see how this question is dependent on the context of the other thread, since they're pretty unrelated things. I think it's a valid topic in of itself.

On the other hand, sorry if I indirectly lead to an annoyance for you, I did intend to wait for a reply in the other thread before doing anything myself, but what's done is done.

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Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Post by Sanghamitta » Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:15 am

You posed it. You answer it.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Post by Kenshou » Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:27 am

What?

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Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Post by Sanghamitta » Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:36 am

Someone other than me posed this as a new thread. UNDER MY NAME... Someone other than me can address it.
Or ignore it. :shrug:
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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