something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by tiltbillings »

5heaps wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Obviously the point is that the later Theravadins did not do that. Had they, you silly criticism would be appropriate.
im not attacking them, i agree with momentariness. what im attacking is your idea which i cited
What idea was that. It is very hard follow you.
since all youve been saying lately is stuff about how things are designations,
And they are not?
what, then, can that person possibly mean wen he says that the present doesnt exist because there is no present, theres just past and future?
Who would possibly say that? Again, you are filtering what is being said through your understanding of the tenet system.
i think you have to employ the use of some form of designation, otherwise it is sheer nihilism. if you to use designation i will attempt to show how it too is nihilistic just as im trying with nana
You are doing a rather poor job of it.
what this has to do with tenet systems i dont quite know. if you just accepted momentariness it would be fine. apparently, however, you think characteristic natures exist without actually existing in any substantial way, somehow.
Just a yes or no question: Does Nagarjuna say things exist in a substantial (whatever that might mean) way?

Actually, what does this have to do with the OP? It is always the same thing with you - trying to filter the Theravada through your non-Theravadin point of view. Why? You have essentially hijacked this thread with your postings that really are not to the point of what is being discussed. You want to discuss this stuff, start a new thread, please.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Sanghamitta »

tiltbillings wrote:
5heaps wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Do you have a clue as the the context of what is being stated here? No, I didn't think so.
"they would have seen that all time could be divided time into past and future. Therefore, there should be no present moment at all."

What is this besides the simple negation of the conventional existence of the present moment? what do you think that means? try and give me some crap about designation. tell me that the present moment of any instance of the form aggregate is an internal object (ie. a designation).
Obviously the point is that the later Theravadins did not do that. Had they, you silly criticism would be appropriate.

Other than riding your Tibetan tenet system hobby-horse, trying filter the Theravada through the Tibetan tenet system, what is your point here?
As usual. 5heaps your frequent (and frequently rancorous ) attempts to smuggle Vajrayana concepts under the wire led me some time ago to conclude that i was not inclined to take your critique of the Theravada with any degree of seriousness. You seem to be part of the small but active group of those who join a Theravada forum in the main the refute the Theravada...or as you would no doubt see it...to fill in the gap in our knowledge. Speaking for myself your efforts are noted but not required ..thank you.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Hoo »

I guess it's time for me to ask the question....How many of the participants in this discussion actually have degrees in philosophy? Are they Western philosophy, Eastern, comparative religion, theology, etc? Any professional philosophers?

Hoo
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Individual »

Hoo wrote:I guess it's time for me to ask the question....How many of the participants in this discussion actually have degrees in philosophy? Are they Western philosophy, Eastern, comparative religion, theology, etc? Any professional philosophers?

Hoo
At the local community college, I took intro to philosophy, intro to logic, and intro to ethics

And I kept the textbooks for all three classes
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Prasadachitta »

5heaps wrote:
gabrielbranbury wrote:I see the back of my hand surrounded by monitor. How does this show parts as real and not simply a convention?
they dont function as "conventions". they function as things out of which you can mentally construct conventions.
Ok. From my point of view you just keep stating what is the case and so do I. Neither of us really knows. All I can say is that you havnt said anything that comes close to changing how I feel about the way in which things endure. It does not make sense to me logically or in terms of how my experience unfolds.
saying things are not bound is equivalent to saying things dont function, cos theyre just imagined. things dont have their own properties, because they dont have their own causes and conditions, cos actually theyre just my imaginations (namely, my designations). does this sound right, or helpful?
I do not see how saying things are not bound is equivalent to saying things dont function. The way in which a thing functions is not free from the influence of nominal designation. Designation is not the same as imagination but similar. If I draw a map in the sand with houses and roads I use my imagination to designate a model of some place onto the sand. If I properly convey how my the model corresponds to your need to find your way then the map has served its purpose. In no way is the map in the sand separate from the sand. If I did not convey what the marks in the sand meant then it would be seen as sand just like all the rest.

Designations are not imagined because we do it together. Everyone interacting in society continually influences designations of various kinds. Also we have been setting up these ways of construing the world through countless lives. The way in which parts exist for us is not just a matter imagination. Its part of who we think we are. It is Nihilism to simply reject all of this as unreal because we must work with the forms which are present. We must stay alert because all of our designations are continually changing but always under the influence of those which came before.


Metta


Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Prasadachitta »

Hoo wrote:I guess it's time for me to ask the question....How many of the participants in this discussion actually have degrees in philosophy? Are they Western philosophy, Eastern, comparative religion, theology, etc? Any professional philosophers?

Hoo
I have no formal training whatsoever. Whatever I say should not be given any weight beyond what you perceive me to be saying. Unless it has to do with photography which I am very knowledgeable about as I have been working in the field my whole adult life.
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Individual »

gabrielbranbury wrote: Designations are not imagined because we do it together. Everyone interacting in society continually influences designations of various kinds. Also we have been setting up these ways of construing the world through countless lives. The way in which parts exist for us is not just a matter imagination. Its part of who we think we are. It is Nihilism to simply reject all of this as unreal because we must work with the forms which are present. We must stay alert because all of our designations are continually changing but always under the influence of those which came before.
It isn't nihilism if you regard virtually all designations as imagined, but without rejecting any of it as "unreal", and feel disinterested in forming a universally perfect expression

"Designations are not imagined because we do it together": what the heck? People can't be stupid in unison?
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Prasadachitta
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Prasadachitta »

Individual wrote:
gabrielbranbury wrote: Designations are not imagined because we do it together. Everyone interacting in society continually influences designations of various kinds. Also we have been setting up these ways of construing the world through countless lives. The way in which parts exist for us is not just a matter imagination. Its part of who we think we are. It is Nihilism to simply reject all of this as unreal because we must work with the forms which are present. We must stay alert because all of our designations are continually changing but always under the influence of those which came before.
It isn't nihilism if you regard virtually all designations as imagined, but without rejecting any of it as "unreal", and feel disinterested in forming a universally perfect expression

"Designations are not imagined because we do it together": what the heck? People can't be stupid in unison?
You are using imagination in a different way than I am. You equate it with stupidity. One might know they are imagining. Again I said that designations are similar to imaginings.


Metta


Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Sobeh »

tiltbillings wrote:For thems who have not kept up with set theory since 9th grade, his point, in clear lucid English, is?
To present a description of experience which conserves the appearance of permanence sensed by the putthujana while describing a fundamental structure which reveals the underlying fact of impermanence. Permanence involves experiencing one level of epistemological generality in isolation from other levels of generality, and change is similarly described.
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Nyana »

5heaps wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:No, one is trying to end unsatisfactoriness by removing ignorant reification and craving
ignorant reification of what?
Reification of persons and things as permanent persons and self-existent things. And to what end? To eliminate craving sensual pleasure (kāmataṇhā), craving existence (bhavataṇhā), and craving non-existence (vibhavataṇhā).
5heaps wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:I'm not under any obligation to accept any commentarial use of sabhāva,
are you suggesting Theravada is not a realist school?
As already mentioned, at some point the Theravāda commentaries certainly began making realist claims. And as Tilt has implied, this doesn't really come to the fore until at least the sub-commentarial period.
5heaps wrote:if you to use designation i will attempt to show how it too is nihilistic just as im trying with nana
Well, then I would suggest that you're attempting to beat a dead horse!

And on a related note, I quit thinking in terms of vādas and yānas a long time ago. I consider everything other than the suttas of the Nikāyas and Āgamas to be a series of endnotes to the teachings of the ascetic Gotama. Some of these endnotes are more informative than others. Many just wander off into thickets of views.

All the best,

Geoff
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Alex123
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Alex123 »

tiltbillings wrote: Sure, but let us do it as a dialogue. What is it that "endures unchanged for at least a certain interval of time?"
A concept of a whole, like a concept of a "forest". Induvidial trees may all eventually be replaced by newer ones, but that "forest" as a concept still remains.


Also any concept "endures" for a certain or even a very long time - this is why we can read what is said here. There is remembrance of what each letter and word (a concept) stands for.
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by beeblebrox »

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: Sure, but let us do it as a dialogue. What is it that "endures unchanged for at least a certain interval of time?"
A concept of a whole, like a concept of a "forest". Induvidial trees may all eventually be replaced by newer ones, but that "forest" as a concept still remains.


Also any concept "endures" for a certain or even a very long time - this is why we can read what is said here. There is remembrance of what each letter and word (a concept) stands for.
A good, simple post. :)

I think the reason why some people have problems with something enduring is because they try to view this so-called "moment" individually (the kind of viewing that goes against the concept laid out in the D.O.), and then end up missing the entire forest.

They try to find the beginning (obviously indiscernible, like the Buddha said), and they also think that if you go up to a larger and a larger forest, it'll lead to something eternal. Obviously untrue, because it goes on and on infinitely... which is not the same as eternity, by the way. While the infinity itself has no end, it still falls away.

So, they assume that these ideas (which they figured out via their mistaken views... avijjā, no less) must mean that it's untrue something can endure... and not only that, they go to the opposite extreme (flux) as their another option. They also mistake this flux as Anicca itself... they're are two separate things, not the same at all.

One is flowing, and the other is impermanence. The flowing itself has the characteristic of impermanence, of course... but the impermanence itself doesn't necessarily have the characteristic of flowing. Something can stand for a while, and then fall away... this is the impermanence of something that's not a flux.

Also, I think that some people, after they see the flux in action (during one of their experiences, say), they try to apply this flux to everything... till everything turns to a mush. This is a bad fallacy.

Moments can be discerned, and also flux can be discerned. Both of them are anicca... and therefore not to be clung to. It's really that simple.
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

Worth the read:

REALITIES AND CONCEPTS - The Buddha's explanation of the world by SUJIN BORIHARNWANAKET
http://www.abhidhamma.org/sujin3.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Paññāsikhara »

Hoo wrote:I guess it's time for me to ask the question....How many of the participants in this discussion actually have degrees in philosophy? Are they Western philosophy, Eastern, comparative religion, theology, etc? Any professional philosophers?

Hoo
Careful, you may be surprised! :tongue:
There are at least a couple of people with PhDs in Buddhist studies and similar on this thread.
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by alan »

Thanks cooran for the link and also thanks to Sanghamitta for the editorial comment, with which I completely agree.
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