Since the tenor of the discussion has turned towards definitions, I'll go ahead and define.
"Bad Philosophy" to me means an argument that:
A) is based on a flawed premise, or,
B) contains illogical assumptions, or,
C) is irrational on it's face.
None of those apply in this case. Agree or don't--but there is no doubt Nanavira had important things to say, and he was a thinker well worth your time.
Was he a stream-winner? I think maybe. I certainly will not be throwing his book out the window.
something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
is there such a thing as "total flux"? Good question, but I wonder if Nanavira is using a cartoon understanding of it. "instant when something actually exists--even if it then changes." But would that not mean that it for an instant does not change; for that instant it is changeless? If that is the case, then how does the changeless come to change?alan wrote:That Nanavira certainly blows minds!
He sure blew mine. I can see now why his ideas stir up such an emotional reaction. I have read it only twice, and don't pretend to get him totally. But just for the purpose of the discussion, I'd say he seems to be reacting, in the passage quoted, against the commentarial position.
So...is there such a thing as "total flux"? He says no, because there must be at least a fraction of an instant when something actually exists--even if it then changes. I can't put that into a wider context, since I'm unaware of most of the commentarial arguments. But in and of itself the argument seems to makes sense. Certainly would not call it bad philosophy.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
the common view is that change is itself a functioning thing which acts on the physical or mental aggregate. this happens so quickly that things cant last for a second moment, but it is an "it" for a brief moment.tiltbillings wrote:But would that not mean that it for an instant does not change; for that instant it is changeless? If that is the case, then how does the changeless come to change?
this obviously destroys some level of belief in a solid identity. however it is a very coarse level of negation, sautrantika's is much more subtle. likewise its very far away from what mahayana emptiness negates
i would talk about subtle impermanence all day long if i could
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."
Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
No, neither would I, and I am yet to hear the reasoning of why it is.alan wrote:Certainly would not call it bad philosophy.
Speaking in general, more often than not people just don't understand what he's saying and they take this quite personally, perhaps they even feel a little insulted. I really sat down and spent countless hours upon hours trying to understand just what the hell Bhante Nyanavira was talking about, and even now I still don't really 'get' it. Which is bloody encouraging actually.
I can, I patiently listened to one very senior Maha Thera instruct us all on the centrality of total flux, for an hour a night, every evening, for 2 months. This Venerable Sir wasn't stupid, he'd spent a great number of years learning the Visuddhimagga and commentaries - A long and venerable tradition, but in my opinion, not the only approach to Dhamma.So...is there such a thing as "total flux"? He says no, because there must be at least a fraction of an instant when something actually exists--even if it then changes. I can't put that into a wider context, since I'm unaware of most of the commentarial arguments.
Anyway the meditation technique on the Macro scale is basically to cultivate sati and get into the 'thin slicing' of each and every moment until you're gradually getting smaller and smaller until flux reveals itself. Makes sense in theory, I guess. Sorry, not trying to discourage anyone from taking up a serious practice of the commentarial method, I don't presume I'm right and you're wrong etc etc.
Last edited by BlackBird on Sat Oct 23, 2010 4:22 am, edited 4 times in total.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
What emotional reaction? As I pointed out, those questions were known to be important, and have been debated for over 2000 years ago. Good on Ven N for realising that they were important questions, but he was hardly special in realising that.alan wrote:That Nanavira certainly blows minds!
He sure blew mine. I can see now why his ideas stir up such an emotional reaction.
Mike
Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Tilt--are you channeling some Zen here? The fact that something stays the same for an instant does not imply it must therefore be changeless. Jeesh.
Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Mike:
The emotional reaction is seen all around you.
The emotional reaction is seen all around you.
Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Perhaps Tilt is trying to get across that Ven N's logic is hardly flawless.alan wrote:Tilt--are you channeling some Zen here? The fact that something stays the same for an instant does not imply it must therefore be changeless. Jeesh.
Furthermore, I'm sure our Ven Paññāsikhara would stongly disagree with this sweeping generalisation on Mahayana thought:
At the very least he'd say "Which particular Mahayana?"(ii) Reality is the non-existence of things. In other words, things do not really exist, they only appear to do so on account of our ignorance (avijjā).
Mike
Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Since when? From what I know, commentarial stuff like sabhava, characteristics, etc, goes pretty much directly against the "everything is an illusion" conclusion. So much so, that tilt finds it problematic as wellBlackBird wrote: Now if you re-read the first quote, you will see that this is nothing more than the two contentions that the Mahayanists make. It is the same argument, unfortunately that Orthodox Theravadins make.
BlackBird wrote:if one is to follow the orthodox Theravadin position that anicca = flux, then one must logically arrive at the Mahayanist contention.
Not sure what the "total flux" argument has to with the commentarial position that has stuff like 3 submoments of citta, rupa lasting 17 moments of citta, cittas of sense-door/mind-door process having the same rupa/nimitta as the object, etc.alan wrote:But just for the purpose of the discussion, I'd say he seems to be reacting, in the passage quoted, against the commentarial position.
So...is there such a thing as "total flux"? He says no, because there must be at least a fraction of an instant when something actually exists--even if it then changes. I can't put that into a wider context, since I'm unaware of most of the commentarial arguments. But in and of itself the argument seems to makes sense.
Best wishes
Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
It has to do with your meditation technique, and overall understanding of the Dhamma.
Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Hi Tilt & all,tiltbillings wrote:Feelings "persist," but anyone who has attended to feelings with a concentrated/mindful mind knows they do not persist as an unchanging some-"thing."
Indeed. There is no need to accept the theory of radical momentariness to clearly see for oneself the alteration while persisting (ṭhitassa aññathatta) of mental fabrications.
All the best,
Geoff
Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
It's not that everything is an illusion, or else there would be no reality, would there. The argument runs: Permanence is an illusion based upon ignorance, flux is the reality behind that one must strive to see. RE: Abhidhamma & commentaries: I wouldn't know, I never studied them, but I have heard the same story from people who have:
Anicca = flux
and therefore:
Anatta = There is no self, because everything is always changing.
My knowledge about these 'moments' is sketchy - Do they attribute an actual measurement of time to these moments? Or are they without time - Like the Pa Auk conception of Path & Fruit?
Anicca = flux
and therefore:
Anatta = There is no self, because everything is always changing.
My knowledge about these 'moments' is sketchy - Do they attribute an actual measurement of time to these moments? Or are they without time - Like the Pa Auk conception of Path & Fruit?
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Hi Tilt
If you wish to understand my position:
http://pathpress.wordpress.com/bodhesako/change/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Says everything I want to say but can't.
and RE: your post Pt1, I'm really not qualified in this area - My knowledge is to do with the Nanavirian method, Suttas and little else, so with an understanding that I'm out of my depth, I'll withdraw and see how she goes.
metta
Jack
If you wish to understand my position:
http://pathpress.wordpress.com/bodhesako/change/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Says everything I want to say but can't.
and RE: your post Pt1, I'm really not qualified in this area - My knowledge is to do with the Nanavirian method, Suttas and little else, so with an understanding that I'm out of my depth, I'll withdraw and see how she goes.
metta
Jack
Last edited by BlackBird on Sat Oct 23, 2010 4:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
- Prasadachitta
- Posts: 974
- Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:52 am
- Location: San Francisco (The Mission) Ca USA
- Contact:
Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
I just looked in a dictionary. The words were already there. Are you being cute?Individual wrote: How is it that you can simply start using words in order to define definition?
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
- Prasadachitta
- Posts: 974
- Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:52 am
- Location: San Francisco (The Mission) Ca USA
- Contact:
Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
I dont get it. Sometimes things like this just take me a while. Or I might never understand.Individual wrote:So I don't just seem like I'm playing games... See this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics#Heidegger" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332