something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:37 pm

BlackBird in another thread wrote:
Nanavira Thera wrote:. . . This, of course, destroys the principle of self-identity, 'A is A'; for unless something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval of time you cannot even make the assertion 'this is A' since the word 'is' has lost its meaning. . . .
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 863#p94863
Wow! Thanks for exposing that bit of really bad philosophy. I guess being a self-proclaimed stream-winner is no guarantee against bad philosophizing.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by BlackBird » Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:44 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Wow! Thanks for exposing that bit of really bad philosophy. I guess being a self-proclaimed stream-winner is no guarantee against bad philosophizing.
Would you care to expand on that opinion with say, an argument of some sort?
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks

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tiltbillings
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:49 pm

BlackBird wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Wow! Thanks for exposing that bit of really bad philosophy. I guess being a self-proclaimed stream-winner is no guarantee against bad philosophizing.
Would you care to expand on that opinion with say, an argument of some sort?
Sure, but let us do it as a dialogue. What is it that "endures unchanged for at least a certain interval of time?"
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Prasadachitta
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Prasadachitta » Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:01 pm

Happy birthday Jack,

Your post could be a new thread.


Quotes are Nanavira Thera as quoted by Jack
unless something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval of time you cannot even make the assertion 'this is A' since the word 'is' has lost its meaning
This sounds right to me. Why assert "A" when "A" can simply be known directly without adding commentary.

BlackBird wrote:Unfortunately, in doing away with the principle of self-identity, you do away with things—including change, which is also a thing.
Why "unfortunately"? Change is not necessarily a thing.
BlackBird wrote:This means that for the puthujjana, who does not see aniccatā, things exist, and for the arahat, who has seen aniccatā, things do not exist.


I dont think it means that things do not exist for an arahat. It means that perception of things is understood to be a contextual occurrence. Existence and Non existence are seen by the arahat as not being applicable without context.

Just my thoughts.

Metta

Gabe
Last edited by Prasadachitta on Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

Shonin
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Shonin » Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:04 pm

:popcorn:

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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by BlackBird » Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:08 pm

I don't see why an argument against Nyanavira's passage requires my input. I'm not here to defend him, I'm here to watch you dissect his argument with logic and reasoning. If and when you do, then perhaps I can contribute something useful.

Cheers
Jack
Last edited by BlackBird on Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks

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tiltbillings
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:09 pm

Shonin wrote::popcorn:
I got royally chewed out when I made much the same comment verbally in another thread. It may be good, informative and, if we are lucky, an entertaining thread. So, popcorn for everyone.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Ytrog » Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:11 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
BlackBird wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Wow! Thanks for exposing that bit of really bad philosophy. I guess being a self-proclaimed stream-winner is no guarantee against bad philosophizing.
Would you care to expand on that opinion with say, an argument of some sort?
Sure, but let us do it as a dialogue. What is it that "endures unchanged for at least a certain interval of time?"
Impermanence is that nothing remains forever in any state. It doesn't mean that something cannot remain in a state for a certain finite time.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el186.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.
mindfulness, bliss and beyond (page 8) wrote:Do not linger on the past. Do not keep carrying around coffins full of dead moments
If you see any unskillful speech (or other action) from me let me know, so I can learn from it.

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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Prasadachitta » Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:15 pm

I dont think I need to disect why logical reasoning based on assertions as a way to see if any ultimate asserstions can be made is a problematic venture.


:popcorn:
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:17 pm

BlackBird wrote:I don't see why an argument against Nyanavira's passage requires my input. I'm not here to defend him, I'm here to watch you dissect his argument with logic and reasoning.

Cheers
Jack
You quoted him, which suggests you support what he has to say and that you understand what he has to say. And it is not un reasonable to ask the person who quoted a someone, what that someone meant.

What endures?
It would be better, bhikkhus, for the uninstructed worlding to take as self this body… rather than the mind. For what reason? The body … is seen standing for one year, for two years, for three, four, five, or ten years, for twenty, thirty, forty, or fify, for a hundred years, or even longer. But that which is called 'mind [citta],' 'mentality [mano],' or 'consciousness [vi~n~naana]' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey roaming through a forest grabs hold of one branch, lets that go and grabs another, then lets that go and grans still another, so too that which is called 'mind [citta],' 'mentality [mano],' or 'consciousness [vi~n~naana]' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Therein, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple attends closely and carefully to dependent origination itself thus: ‘When this exists, that comes to be; with the arising of this that arises…. SN II 94-5 Dhp 35. Wonderful, indeed, it is to subdue the mind, so difficult to subdue, ever swift, and seizing whatever it desires. A tamed mind brings happiness.
Is it the body Nanavira is referring to?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:19 pm

Ytrog wrote:Impermanence is that nothing remains forever in any state. It doesn't mean that something cannot remain in a state for a certain finite time.
So, what is it that endures?
What particulat text are you referring to in Ven Nyanaponika's essay?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by BlackBird » Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:20 pm

gabrielbranbury wrote:I dont think I need to disect why logical reasoning based on assertions as a way to see if any ultimate asserstions can be made is a problematic venture.
Hi grabrielbranbury.

I wasn't responding to your post but to Tilts. He made the statement:
Tilt wrote: Wow! Thanks for exposing that bit of really bad philosophy. I guess being a self-proclaimed stream-winner is no guarantee against bad philosophizing.
I asked him if he could expand upon his opinion with an argument of some sort. I didn't write Nyanavira's piece, it makes good logical sense to me and I would be very interested in seeing a logical and reasoned rebuttal, which is what I asked for.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks

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tiltbillings
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:21 pm

gabrielbranbury wrote:I dont think I need to disect why logical reasoning based on assertions as a way to see if any ultimate asserstions can be made is a problematic venture.
How about restating that so it can be better understood, please.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Ytrog » Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:31 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Ytrog wrote:Impermanence is that nothing remains forever in any state. It doesn't mean that something cannot remain in a state for a certain finite time.
So, what is it that endures?
What particulat text are you referring to in Ven Nyanaponika's essay?
Good question. What is it not? It is not substantial, however we conventionally give something an identity. We identify the states with something. It is a state of something we identify. Ultimately it is not something, though not nothing either. I have no direct experience on this matter (I'm not nearly that far on the path), so my rambling stops here.

As for the assay: I was referring to the preface.
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.
mindfulness, bliss and beyond (page 8) wrote:Do not linger on the past. Do not keep carrying around coffins full of dead moments
If you see any unskillful speech (or other action) from me let me know, so I can learn from it.

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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:49 pm

I find it a little unfortunate how various personal letters that presumably made sense in the context that Ven Nanavira wrote them have taken on a life of their own. Reading the extract that Jack quoted I honestly can't figure out what he's getting at well enough to even evaluate the argument.

However, these questions surrounding anicca and continuity are not new and have been argued about by scholars ancient and modern. As I understand it, the Sarvarstivardin interpretation of the existence of dharmas in the past, present, and future, was an attempt to deal with this sort of issue. The Sautranikas, on the other hand, promoted the sort of "radical momentariness" that Ven N seems to be talking about. The Theravada concept of Bhavanga "solves" the problem of continuity vs change in a different way... See pages 220-223 of Gethin's "Foundations of Buddhism" for a discussion of these arguments on the level I understand it...

:anjali:
Mike

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