Craving for Non-Existence

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
SEC2014
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence

Post by SEC2014 »

piotr wrote:Hi,
bodom_bad_boy wrote:Whoever said Nibbana is the ending of existence?
Sāriputta-thera did (AN 10.7).

Clw_uk I would suggest you to read The Paradox of Becoming by Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu, because he touches this topic in depth there. :coffee:

http://dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writings ... coming.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


That book is really interesting because you can see how modern & pre-modern contemplatives use the perceptual viewpoints discussed by Ajaan Thanissaro (and the suttas) to induce the "arupa" states and teach them as "enlightenment." It is also a good antidote to the erroneous notion that the "anatta" teaching alone will take to you "enlightenment;" craving for non-becoming will still lead to renewed becoming. Here are some quotes from The Paradox of Becoming that illustrate the problem:

"Later passages in this discourse show that the monks in question, in trying
to abandon a sense of self, end up clinging instead to a state of equanimity—a
point that shows how important it is to understand all four types of clinging
in order to escape clinging entirely."

“The supreme viewpoint external (to the Dhamma) is this: ‘I should
not be and it should not occur to me; I will not be; it will not occur to me.’
Of one with this view it may be expected, ‘(The thought of)
unloathsomeness with regard to becoming will not occur to him, and (the
thought of) loathsomeness with regard to the cessation of becoming will
not occur to him.’” — AN 10:29
However, this viewpoint—in and of itself—does not lead to freedom from the
changeablility of becoming.
“There are beings who have this view. Yet even in the beings who have
this view there is still aberration, there is change. Seeing this, the
instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with that.” —
AN 10:29
The Buddha nowhere discusses the precise state of becoming engendered by
the act of holding to this viewpoint, but two possibilities come to mind. The first
is that the act of holding to the second reading of the viewpoint—stating that no
thoughts (or perceptions) should or will occur to one—would apparently lead to
the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. AN 4:172 singles out
this dimension as the realm in which beings take rebirth without conscious
intention on their part or on the part of anyone else. In other words, one takes
rebirth and inhabits a new level of becoming there even when one does not
consciously want to engage in becoming at all. As we will see below, MN 106
states that this realm is the fate of a monk who, with an incomplete
understanding of its results, uses a modified version of this viewpoint."



Now, if you look at someone like Nisargadatta Maharaj, this is exactly what he is doing:

...you are not this, there is nothing of yours in this, except the little point of 'I am' ... . 'I am this, I am that' is dream, while pure 'I am' has the stamp of reality on it. You have tasted so many things -- all came to naught. Only the sense 'I am' persisted -- unchanged. Stay with the changeless among the changeful, until you are able to go beyond.

When the 'I am myself' goes, the 'I am all' comes. When the 'I am all' goes, 'I am' comes. When even 'I am' goes, reality alone is...

By knowing what you are not, you come to know your Self. The way back to your Self is through refusal and rejection.

http://www.nonduality.com/beyond.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


He describes what sounds exactly like the arupa state of neither perception nor non-perception:

I am beyond, though it is not easy to explain how one can be neither conscious, nor unconscious, but just beyond.

http://www.prahlad.org/gallery/nisargad ... _9785_.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So the awareness is beyond even the universal consciousness. Another way that he put this astonishing distinction is by saying that the absolute is "awareness unaware of itself."

http://www.prahlad.org/disciples/preman ... RENESS.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Now, look at how Ajaan Lee describes the "dimension of neither perception nor non-perception." It sounds exactly like the same state Nisargadatta is describing:

4. Nevasañña-nasaññayatana: being absorbed in a feeling that occurs in the mind, that isn't awareness exactly, but neither is it non-awareness; i.e., there is awareness, but with no thinking, no focusing of awareness on what it knows.

These four formless absorptions are merely resting places for the mind, because they are states that the mind enters, stays in, and leaves. They are by nature unstable and inconstant, so we shouldn't rest content simply at this level. We have to go back and forth through the various levels many times so as to realize that they're only stages of enforced tranquillity.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/themes.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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samseva
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence

Post by samseva »

clw_uk wrote:What is the problem with craving for non-existence, isnt nibbana the ending of existence, cesstation so isnt walking the path simply a craving for non-existence?
Simply, because it is craving for non-existance.

Nibbāna isn't the immediate ending of existence, but it is a guarantee of Parinibbāna, which this is in fact the complete ending of existence.

The annihilationist view is based on the annihilation of a self, which is a false view, because there is no self.
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence

Post by SarathW »

" Nibbāna isn't the immediate ending of existence, but it is a guarantee of Parinibbāna, which this is in fact the complete ending of existence."
=============

What do you mean here?
What do you mean by Parinibbana?
:thinking:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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samseva
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence

Post by samseva »

samseva wrote:Nibbāna isn't the immediate ending of existence, but it is a guarantee of Parinibbāna, which this is in fact the complete ending of existence."
=============

What do you mean here?
What do you mean by Parinibbana?
:thinking:
Parinibbāna is the breakup of the five aggregates of an Arahant. Existence ends and there is no rebirth.
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence

Post by Spiny Norman »

samseva wrote:Simply, because it is craving for non-existence.
So do you mean the craving for pari-Nibbana, or something more like suicidal thoughts?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence

Post by Coyote »

On the subject of craving for parinibbāna:

Itivuttaka 49:
  • This was said by the Lord…

    “Bhikkhus, held by two kinds of views, some devas and
    human beings hold back and some overreach; only those with vision see.

    “And how, bhikkhus, do some hold back? Devas and humans enjoy being, delight in being, are satisfied with being. When Dhamma is taught to them for the cessation of being, their minds do not enter into it or acquire confidence in it or settle upon it or become resolved upon it. Thus, bhikkhus, do some hold back.

    “How, bhikkhus, do some overreach? Now some are troubled, ashamed, and disgusted by this very same being and they rejoice in (the idea of) non-being, asserting: ‘In as much as this self, good sirs, when the body perishes at death, is annihilated and destroyed and does not exist after death—this is peaceful, this is excellent, this is reality!’ Thus, bhikkhus, do some overreach.

    “How, bhikkhus, do those with vision see? Herein a bhikkhu sees what has come to be as having come to be. Having seen it thus, he practises the course for turning away, for dispassion, for the cessation of what has come to be. Thus, bhikkhus, do those with vision see.”

    Having seen what has come to be
    As having come to be,
    Passing beyond what has come to be,
    They are released in accordance with truth
    By exhausting the craving for being.

    When a bhikkhu has fully understood
    That which has come to be as such,
    Free from craving to be this or that,
    By the extinction of what has come to be
    He comes no more to renewal of being.

    This too is the meaning of what was said by the Lord, so I heard.
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
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samseva
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence

Post by samseva »

Coyote wrote:On the subject of craving for parinibbāna:

“How, bhikkhus, do some overreach? Now some are troubled, ashamed, and disgusted by this very same being and they rejoice in (the idea of) non-being, asserting: ‘In as much as this self, good sirs, when the body perishes at death, is annihilated and destroyed and does not exist after death—this is peaceful, this is excellent, this is reality!’ Thus, bhikkhus, do some overreach.
Although, craving for Parinibbāna is in fact unwholesome, what is described in the passage is the belief in a self that perishes after death. This is false on two accounts, since there is no self to annihilate and rebirth will occur, seeing as an Arahant cannot have the false view of annihilationism.
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samseva
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence

Post by samseva »

Spiny Norman wrote:
samseva wrote:Simply, because it is craving for non-existence.
So do you mean the craving for pari-Nibbana, or something more like suicidal thoughts?
Non-existence is the (slightly misleading) translation for the Pāḷi term vibhava-taṇhā. Taṇhā is craving, vi is the negation and bhava is translated as ‘becoming’ or ‘process of existence’. The term vibhava-taṇhā can mean both 'craving for the absence of life' or 'craving for the absence of something we dislike', encompassing every single nuance. Better and other translations would be 'aversion' and 'hate'.

Pāḷi terms are usually a lot more inclusive and—counterintuitively—more precise. This is why multiple English words are needed to correctly define each term/word.
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence

Post by Coyote »

samseva wrote: Although, craving for Parinibbāna is in fact unwholesome, what is described in the passage is the belief in a self that perishes after death. This is false on two accounts, since there is no self to annihilate and rebirth will occur, seeing as an Arahant cannot have the false view of annihilationism.
Yes, but even when one realises that the view of self is false one still does not delight in the cessation of existence, merely remove the causes for its continuance, as per the sutta. It shows that, with right view, no craving ( for bhava or vi-bhava) needs to be involved.

Also there seems to be a difference between vi-bhava (non-existence) and bhavanirodha (cessation of existence). One is what the dhamma is taught for (bhavanirodha) and the other is a false view based on self.
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
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samseva
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence

Post by samseva »

Coyote wrote:Yes, but even when one realises that the view of self is false one still does not delight in the cessation of existence, merely remove the causes for its continuance, as per the sutta. It shows that, with right view, no craving ( for bhava or vi-bhava) needs to be involved.

Also there seems to be a difference between vi-bhava (non-existence) and bhavanirodha (cessation of existence). One is what the dhamma is taught for (bhavanirodha) and the other is a false view based on self.
One would have to define 'delight', but if there is no greed, hate or delusion, an Arahant can delight in the idea of cessation of existence.

Examples of this are a number of the eighteen kinds of insight, such as extinction (nirodhānupassanā), abandoning (paṭinissaggānupassanā), contemplation of turning away (vivaṭṭanānupassanā). It is also said that:
  • “I do not long for death, I do not long for life; I await my time as a servant his wages."

    “I do not long for death, I do not long for life; but I await my time attentive and mindful.”
    (Verses of the Arahant Saṃkicca, Thag. 606-7. Norman tr.)
SarathW
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence

Post by SarathW »

Buddha did not teach existence and non-existence.
He taught dependent origination.
So, the question in OP is not valid.
What we are striving is to eliminate attachment, aversion and ignorance.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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samseva
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence

Post by samseva »

SarathW wrote:Buddha did not teach existence and non-existence.
He taught dependent origination.
So, the question in OP is not valid.
What we are striving is to eliminate attachment, aversion and ignorance.
Even though he didn't advocate existence and non-existence, it doesn't remove the fact that it is extensively discussed in the Suttas—as in probably more than a third.
pegembara
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence

Post by pegembara »

SarathW wrote:" Nibbāna isn't the immediate ending of existence, but it is a guarantee of Parinibbāna, which this is in fact the complete ending of existence."
=============

What do you mean here?
What do you mean by Parinibbana?
:thinking:
I think a more accurate description would be parinibbana is the complete ending of experience whereas awakening is the immediate ending of the delusion of existence while still having experiences.

How can one crave for non existence when existence is realised to be an illusion?
Form is like a glob of foam;
feeling, a bubble;
perception, a mirage;
fabrications, a banana tree;
consciousness, a magic trick —
this has been taught
by the Kinsman of the Sun.
However you observe them,
appropriately examine them,
they're empty, void
to whoever sees them
appropriately.

Phena Sutta
"And which are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is internal? There being 'I am,' there comes to be 'I am here,' there comes to be 'I am like this' ... 'I am otherwise' ... 'I am bad' ... 'I am good' ... 'I might be' ... 'I might be here' ... 'I might be like this' ... 'I might be otherwise' ... 'May I be' ... 'May I be here' ... 'May I be like this' ... 'May I be otherwise' ... 'I will be' ... 'I will be here' ... 'I will be like this' ... 'I will be otherwise.' These are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is internal.

"And which are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is external? There being 'I am because of this (or: by means of this),' there comes to be 'I am here because of this,' there comes to be 'I am like this because of this' ... 'I am otherwise because of this' ... 'I am bad because of this' ... 'I am good because of this' ... 'I might be because of this' ... 'I might be here because of this' ... 'I might be like this because of this' ... 'I might be otherwise because of this' ... 'May I be because of this' ... 'May I be here because of this' ... 'May I be like this because of this' ... 'May I be otherwise because of this' ... 'I will be because of this' ... 'I will be here because of this' ... 'I will be like this because of this' ... 'I will be otherwise because of this.' These are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is external.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Perhaps there is a waiting for ending of experience.
"Bhikkhus, all is burning. And what is the all that is burning?

"Bhikkhus, when a noble follower who has heard (the truth) sees thus, he finds estrangement in the eye, finds estrangement in forms, finds estrangement in eye-consciousness, finds estrangement in eye-contact, and whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful- nor-pleasant that arises with eye-contact for its indispensable condition, in that too he finds estrangement.

"He finds estrangement in the ear... in sounds...

"He finds estrangement in the nose... in odors...

"He finds estrangement in the tongue... in flavors...

"He finds estrangement in the body... in tangibles...

"He finds estrangement in the mind, finds estrangement in ideas, finds estrangement in mind-consciousness, finds estrangement in mind-contact, and whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with mind-contact for its indispensable condition, in that too he finds estrangement.

"When he finds estrangement, passion fades out. With the fading of passion, he is liberated.

Fire Sermon
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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acinteyyo
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence

Post by acinteyyo »

clw_uk wrote:What is the problem with craving for non-existence, isnt nibbana the ending of existence, cesstation so isnt walking the path simply a craving for non-existence?
Craving for non-existence is rooted in ignorance, because one fails to see that in order for non-existence to be significant one has to hold onto the view that some-thing exists that can be annihilated. Therefore one circles around the extremes of existence and non-existence, both wrong views ignoring that the Buddha teaches the middle way, that is dependent co-origination.

Nibbana is not non-existence, it is the cessation of greed, hatred and delusion by uprooting ignorance through wisdom.

Both formerly and now, Bhikkhus, it is only suffering that I make known and the cessation of suffering (MN22).
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence

Post by SarathW »

clw_uk wrote:What is the problem with craving for non-existence, isnt nibbana the ending of existence, cesstation so isnt walking the path simply a craving for non-existence?
May be CLW got a point.
Many Buddhist have some form of craving. However its is considered good craving.
Noble Eight Fold Path is a fabrication and it also consist of views.
However it is called right view as it is leading to Nibbana.
All the views are eliminated only at the last stage of right knowledge and right release.

============
Interesting article:

Boredom is based on what our Great Adversary called vibhavatanha, “the craving for non-being”, in the vernacular. They find their current state of existence unbearable, chiefly because of their own mental state, and they wish to blot it out. In the purest form, this leads to suicide and a consequent lower rebirth; in a milder form, it leads to the petty self-annihilation by means of drink, drugs, sleep, or mindless entertainment.


http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh461-p.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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