Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
nibs
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by nibs » Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:39 pm

parth wrote:Nibs Wrote:
Hehe!

Hi Geoff,

I beg to differ. I am all for Buddhist liberation. Us versus them!! Raaaargh!
Dear Nibs,

With all due respect, you may be all for Buddhist liberation but anybody who teaches you anything with these beliefs will not be able to take you anywhere and what sort of liberation are we talking about. Liberation is, liberation from fetters but Mr. Ingram does not seem to have understood that forget practicing it. So where will he lead you or others he manages to mislead, he himself seems to be deluded and seems to have misunderstood the very heart of dhamma.

This certainly is not worth laughing for any serious meditator.

Metta

Parth
Hi Parth,

Personally, I've had little contact with Daniel having only been influenced by his practical guide to the nanas. It kicked started my practice after years of spinning my wheels. Claims and misdiagnosis aside, tell me what is wrong with the rest of the book? You've read it?

Seriously,

nibs

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tiltbillings
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Feb 06, 2011 7:32 pm

nibs wrote: Personally, I've had little contact with Daniel having only been influenced by his practical guide to the nanas. It kicked started my practice after years of spinning my wheels. Claims and misdiagnosis aside, tell me what is wrong with the rest of the book? You've read it?
Enough of it. As a"misdiagnosis" goes, it could not be worse. Looking elsewhere might not be a bad idea based upon that alone.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

nibs
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by nibs » Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:12 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
nibs wrote: Personally, I've had little contact with Daniel having only been influenced by his practical guide to the nanas. It kicked started my practice after years of spinning my wheels. Claims and misdiagnosis aside, tell me what is wrong with the rest of the book? You've read it?
Enough of it. As a"misdiagnosis" goes, it could not be worse. Looking elsewhere might not be a bad idea based upon that alone.
Well, that ends the conversation about that then.

Things are changing, tilt. Yogis are not making such big claims these days. There are many yogis seeing he was wrong about the whole arhat thing. But those yogis are still practicing the techniques of meditation that lead to results as talked of by the Buddha. Techniques, I assume, you also are familiar with. If they weren't so effective, they wouldn't be practiced. If you are so upset at such things, delete this big elephant of a thread and we'll leave it at that.

And yeh, each person should decided for themselves through their own practice.

metta,

nibs

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by Nyana » Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:38 pm

nibs wrote:I beg to differ. I am all for Buddhist liberation. Us versus them!! Raaaargh!
Hi Nibs,

I'm not interested in any sort of "us vs. them." Ingram's statements about an arahant still experiencing lust, etc., from the perspective of the suttas, is explicitly demonstrating wrong view. This illustrates a serious lack of understanding of conditioned arising and kamma. And the consequence of wrong view means that he hasn't entered the stream, let alone having any higher realization.

And from a pragmatic perspective, what kind of "liberation" is he and others with similar views offering? It's certainly not Buddhist liberation. And it's completely disingenuous of anyone to maintain what is contrary to the dhamma is actually liberation. There are many teachers out there who teach what is consistent with the dhammavinaya and are therefore far more credible.

All the best,

Geoff

Nyana
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by Nyana » Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:40 pm

nibs wrote:Techniques, I assume, you also are familiar with. If they weren't so effective, they wouldn't be practiced.
The dhamma isn't about "techniques."

All the best,

Geoff

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andre9999
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by andre9999 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:41 pm

You don't have to read very far into the book and author to see that he's probably a narcissist. And if you've ever known a real narcissist, you know that the rules don't apply to them. I bet that guy will lie, cheat, and steal to make people believe he's an arahant.

Morality paves the way to enlightenment. You can't have one without the other, and you don't have to be far down the path to know that.

nibs
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by nibs » Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:12 pm

Ok, no worries guys. No hard feelings. Good luck on your respective paths. Much success, peace and harmony for each of you!

Metta,

nibs

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Guy
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by Guy » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:17 am

andre9999 wrote:Morality paves the way to enlightenment. You can't have one without the other, and you don't have to be far down the path to know that.
Well said. I think this summarizes (at least for me) one of the main problems with Ingram's claims. No morality = No Arahant. Case closed.
Four types of letting go:

1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things

- Ajahn Brahm

gsteinb
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by gsteinb » Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:27 am

andre9999 wrote: I bet that guy will lie, cheat, and steal to make people believe he's an arahant.
uh, wrong speech much?

PeterB
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by PeterB » Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:41 am

gsteinb wrote:
andre9999 wrote: I bet that guy will lie, cheat, and steal to make people believe he's an arahant.
uh, wrong speech much?
And the English translation of that reply is ?

Parth
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by Parth » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:14 pm

Dear Nibs,

You wrote :
There are many yogis seeing he was wrong about the whole arhat thing. But those yogis are still practicing the techniques of meditation that lead to results as talked of by the Buddha.
Please try and understand what Buddha preached was a noble eightfold path comprising of Sila (right speech, right action, right livlihood), samadhi (right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration) and panna (right view, right intention). What Mr. Ingram seems to be practising misses out entirely on sila which essentially is the foundation / roots of the tree called dhamma (what to talk of the other two parts which are probably more subtle). If the foundation itself is bad / weak the tree cannot and will not give the fruits that one wants. This part/ understanding (atleast) should have got corrected at stream entrant stage itself i.e. if he was one.

Yes, what he might be teaching can be parts of samadhi which can be done without a strong sila and make one feel as if he is nearing the path, there are dime a dozen such people, for your own sake dont follow them, especially when you can learn Vipassana from more authentic sources (Goenkaji's / Mahasi Sayadaw method).

Metta

Parth

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kirk5a
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by kirk5a » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:38 pm

I'm completely skeptical of Mr. Ingram's claims regarding arahantship, but this is what he says about his training. So I think some of the piling on here is going too far.

"Within the Theravada, my primary influence is the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition of insight meditation from Burma, and I have been given permission to teach by Sayadaw U Pandita, Junior in that lineage. "
http://www.interactivebuddha.com/about.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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andre9999
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by andre9999 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:02 pm

PeterB wrote:
gsteinb wrote:
andre9999 wrote: I bet that guy will lie, cheat, and steal to make people believe he's an arahant.
uh, wrong speech much?
And the English translation of that reply is ?
It's a (American?) colloquialism meant to display sarcasm. More clearly it would read, "do you use wrong speech much?" pointing out that what I said was wrong speech.

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andre9999
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by andre9999 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:12 pm

gsteinb wrote:
andre9999 wrote:I bet that guy will lie, cheat, and steal to make people believe he's an arahant.
uh, wrong speech much?
Well, the context was that from what I've read it sure seems to me that he may be a narcissist because he doesn't seem to think the rules apply to him. I think he has delusions of grandeur and wants to make sure everyone knows how super enlightened he is, and how no one gets it but him.
Daniel is an extroverted Gen X intellectual. He is known for his pronounced enthusiasm, lip-flapping, grandiosity, eccentricity, and calling people on their stuff and shadow sides regardless of whether or not this is helpful or even accurate. He is an arahat and has a solid mastery of the basic concentration states from the first jhana to Nirodha Samapatti, including the Pure Land Jhanas. He also has a solid knowledge of Buddhist theory and the texts, and because of these three areas of expertise considers himself a qualified teacher.
So you can choose to believe he's as enlightened as The Buddha was - that's your problem, not mine. Any fool can see that an insightful person doesn't speak like that. He just wants you to think he's really important and spiritual.

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kirk5a
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by kirk5a » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:36 pm

What is foolish is not to recognize foolishness in oneself but very certain about it in others. On that note, looks like I better go to work. :smile:
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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