Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Cittasanto
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by Cittasanto » Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:07 am

chownah wrote:
robertk wrote:
practitioner wrote:http://psychologytomorrowmagazine.com/i ... d-science/

To say that MRI malfunctioned is to ridicule Harvard scientist's incompetency, which I know is not the case.
the article you quote says nothing about the brain disappearing.
I think that this is the excerpt which practitioner is refering to :
"Lying on their padded gurneys in the center of the humming MRI in this famous research hospital in the heart of East Boston and Harvard Medical School, each of the two research subjects suddenly… disappeared."

A careful reading shows that they do not indicate whether it was the subjective experience of the subjects which lead to the idea that they "disaappeared" or whether it was the mri machine's data which indicated that they had "disappeared". In other words, they do not say explicitly that the mri machine showed anything unusual and it might be that the subjects were simply stating that they experienced a "disappearance" while in the machine.
chownah
Hi Chownah,
The article is directly refering to consciousness, and meditative experiance at this point, there is no reason to think it was to do with the mri readings.

Kind Regards
Cittasanto
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

chownah
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by chownah » Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:52 am

Cittasanto wrote:[Hi Chownah,
The article is directly refering to consciousness, and meditative experiance at this point, there is no reason to think it was to do with the mri readings.

Kind Regards
Cittasanto
I think you very well may be correct...but the article does not state clearly what is meant that I could see. I am not too worried about what this article wrote because if someone who meditates is able to stop the signals coming from their brain so that an mri reads nothing there then for sure we will very soon hear more about it as it will be the object of intense study I am sure. I am not holding my breath however.
chownah

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by Cittasanto » Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:58 pm

chownah wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:[Hi Chownah,
The article is directly refering to consciousness, and meditative experiance at this point, there is no reason to think it was to do with the mri readings.

Kind Regards
Cittasanto
I think you very well may be correct...but the article does not state clearly what is meant that I could see. I am not too worried about what this article wrote because if someone who meditates is able to stop the signals coming from their brain so that an mri reads nothing there then for sure we will very soon hear more about it as it will be the object of intense study I am sure. I am not holding my breath however.
chownah
Agreed, :)
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

practitioner
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by practitioner » Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:00 am

fMRI measures changes in blood flow, so if an enlightened being has no thoughts then blood flow remains steady. Why would you see the brain in fMRI? You wouldn't.

I have heard enlightened beings sleep but remain conscious during sleep.

chownah
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by chownah » Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:29 am

practitioner wrote:fMRI measures changes in blood flow, so if an enlightened being has no thoughts then blood flow remains steady. Why would you see the brain in fMRI? You wouldn't.

I have heard enlightened beings sleep but remain conscious during sleep.
I think we are getting way off topic here although the discussion of the topic seems to have pretty much stopped. ANyway, there are more things going on inside the brain then just thoughts so even if all thoughts were stopped the brain would be active so blood flow would not remain steady. I think in the fmri you would not only see changes in blood flow but from the data collected you would be able to see the brain overall as well its many divisions.
chownah

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by davidbrainerd » Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:16 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:Regarding the above quotes from the Buddha I don't see them as dualistic. The process of letting go body, sensations, perceptions, volitions and consciousness lays bare the following: since there is nothing else that constitutes a person, when every constituent is abandoned as being not self, there is nothing left to even be considered self. So there is no self.

As for Ingram's teachings, I think they are compatible with some hermeneutical approaches to the suttas. If you try to be make a charitable interpretation of his writings, I think it is the case of the mentioned paragraph that it is compatible with buddhist doctrine.
His teaching is that arhats have neither cut off the taints nor fetters...there is no hermeneutical approach that can make that work with the suttas other than the hermeneutic of dishonesty.

His interpretation of anatta, on the otherhand, we could argue about forever, as with any other interpretation of anatta. But his interpretation of arhats, and thus of the goal and whole point of Buddhism is unquestionably wrong and thus irredeemable.

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