http://www.interactivebuddha.com/arahats.shtml
An Essay about Arahats (Arhats, Arahants, etc.)
by Daniel M. Ingram, Arahat
....................
Here are a number of bogus myths and falsehoods about arahats, each of which violates one of more of the First Principles in addition to simply being untrue:
1. Arahats cannot lie.
2. Arahats cannot have erections or have sex.
3. Arahats would never do drugs or drink.
4. Arahats cannot kill anything ever.
5. Arahats cannot state they are arahats.
6. Arahats must ordain within 7 days of becomming an arahat in the Buddhist order of monks or they will die.
7. Arahats cannot think the thought "I am an arahat."
8. Arahats cannot feel the following emotions: lust, hatred, irritation, restlessness, worry, fear, pride, conceit, desire for the formless realms, desire for the formed realms, or any other "bad" emotion.
9. Arahats cannot like music or dance.
10. Arahats love forests.
11. Arahats cannot have jobs or normal relationships.
12. Arahats do not really exist today.
13. Arahats must work hard to maintain their understanding, and it is this that makes them unable to do so many things.
14. Arahats have not fully realized the Truth of Things, but instead only practioners of certain strains of Tibetan Buddhism can really see through to reality.
Those who go back to the books to find quotes to try to prove me wrong should:
..........
1. Consider that the texts contain numerous contraditions even within themselves.
2. Were written down over hundreds of years from stories recited over hundreds of years by people with diverse backgrounds and levels of understanding, and so contain both truth and falsehood.
3. Get your head out of the books and go get enlightened to a high degree, as not only will that end the debate, it is the thing that all this is about in the first place.........................
I get so many emails from people who say things like, "I'm not really feeling much lust anymore, so I must be enlightened." Wow. I hardly know where to begin except to feel sorry for them.
I really feel like crying that people can listen/read the above ramblings and actually take it seriously. The ending of lust, hate and delusion makes up 90% of the suttas. This guy has to be either
a) A con artist
b) Deluded
c) Both
Without the ORIGINAL teachings Mr Ingram has nothing to base his assertions, having made them he then totally dismisses those very same teachings, to allow Arahants to engage in sex, drugs and rock n roll. Come on people!
Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment
Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"
Hi Legolas
Your post echoes some of the concerns regarding the 'hardcore' movement and some high-profile western teachers who are claiming ariya status. For what its worth, the latest post from Wandering Dharma is worthy of consideration:
kind regards
Ben
Your post echoes some of the concerns regarding the 'hardcore' movement and some high-profile western teachers who are claiming ariya status. For what its worth, the latest post from Wandering Dharma is worthy of consideration:
I just haven't had the time to respond, though I am sure others here will have a lot to say.Polarization of Ideas of Enlightenment: Comments on ‘The Hardcore Meditation Movement’
Looking through the comments on my recent ‘Hardcore Meditation Movement’ post, I noticed a polarity in the reactions. This post generated many comments, much discussion, and some strong reactions. Much of the discussion centered on whether or not the hardcore meditation teachers are, in fact, enlightened, as they claim. There were critics who found these claims blasphemous and wanted to see more ethics and less masculine energy coming from this movement. But there were also many defenders and practitioners who are students of hardcore teachers, saying this is not what matters about this movement, but instead it is the inspiration to practice that they provide. This polarization shows a deep division within the Western Buddhist community. The issues that divide are this idea of the possibility of enlightenment and the correct path towards this goal.
The rest is here: http://wanderingdhamma.wordpress.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
kind regards
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"
Based on what you posted he's certainly deluded. Mr. Ingram is in the same group as the self-proclaimed Buddha Maitreya:legolas wrote:I really feel like crying that people can listen/read the above ramblings and actually take it seriously. The ending of lust, hate and delusion makes up 90% of the suttas. This guy has to be either
a) A con artist
b) Deluded
c) Both
Without the ORIGINAL teachings Mr Ingram has nothing to base his assertions, having made them he then totally dismisses those very same teachings, to allow Arahants to engage in sex, drugs and rock n roll. Come on people!
And these two:
Not to mention Buddhism for Vampires....
As the "hardcore dharma" people are every bit as marginal as the above self-proclaimed "teachers" there is no significant "deep division within the Western Buddhist community." Sure there are people deluded enough to encourage such nonsense, but that's their problem.Ben wrote:This polarization shows a deep division within the Western Buddhist community.
Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"
Oh dear lord!Ñāṇa wrote: Buddhism for Vampires....
Sad, but true. Yet, you've made my day.Ñāṇa wrote: Yet there seem to be people deluded enough to encourage such nonsense.
kind regards
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"
Hi Nana,
The guy on the right wrote a book called "Journey into vastness". In my early days I was captivated with Tibetan Buddhism and the mystery involved. What I want to say is that the book was actually really good as far as a lot of meditation instruction went and its easy jokey style (live, drink & be merry). Thats where the danger is, all style and no substance. Its why I would like to see more Theravada monks/practitioners be more vocal about how marvellous & joyful the path of dispassion is.
- Dharmakara
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Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"
Okay, maybe it's time for some light humor in this thread... is it just me or does Ngakpa Chogyam look like a Nutcracker King?
Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"
Ben wrote:Hi Legolas
Your post echoes some of the concerns regarding the 'hardcore' movement and some high-profile western teachers who are claiming ariya status.
Ben
Hi Ben,
Can you provide some links to concerns about the other high profile western teachers who are claiming ariya status, or perhaps more concerns (it would be great it they were voiced by other well known teachers) regarding the hardcore movement.
thanks,
Gary
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Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"
Double post
Last edited by nobodyhome on Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"
enough
Last edited by nobodyhome on Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
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Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"
Says who? You? Ingram? Why should anyone believe you guys? Ingram's take on all of this is self-serving, at best. Basically, it is naught more than a eisegetical redefinition of what the Buddha taught to fit Ingram's rather lesser attainments. Your explanation are grounded in what? Not the Buddha's teaching that you or Ingram have shown. It is Ingram-ism, which is okay, but it is certainly is not Buddhism.nobodyhome wrote:
You guys are really getting heated up on this issue. It is only going to get bigger. So I might as well throw some wood on the fire.
1. Arahats cannot lie.
Yes, they can if they "want".
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"
???
Last edited by nibs on Sat Sep 11, 2010 2:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"
Im with you nibs
Last edited by nobodyhome on Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"
"Not self" can't ever become clearer... because it already is. Attempting to turn Anatta into a concept that "will be made clearer" betrays of working from the viewpoint that there is a self (that you think is imagined or otherwise). That is annihilationism, which is a wrong view. If the practice wasn't based on the right view to begin with... then how can it lead to a (true) awakening?nobodyhome wrote:Impermanence and not self become ever so clearer.
I always say this: Dependent Origination = ignorance will inevitably lead to suffering (or at least some hardship), and then a (metaphorical) death. If the foundation was poor to begin with (or even if it was laid very carefully), the house built on it will collapse (or in the case of a "good" foundation, it will fall apart eventually) due to Anicca.
I would response to the rest of your post, but it's really too long... so I'm cutting it right at the root, and save my (and hopefully yours) time.
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"
Ingram-ism/Folk-ism, it would seem.nobodyhome wrote:
Ok, so if it isn't "Buddhism' as you see it, then what is it?
An informal logical fallacy of appealing to numbers, but, yes, you all could be wrong. No question that there are experiences being had. The question is what are they and why add them to one's credentials. The Dhamma is not about addition; it is about letting go, which includes letting go of the very experiences one is so seemingly proud of touting. And the Buddha was quite clear that meditative experiences can be easily misread, which is another reason not to hang one's hat on them.More and more yogis are having these things occur. What else could it be? We can't all be lying.
That's nice.The practices [Ingram-ism/Folk-ism] these yogis are doing are resulting in insight and happiness. It is only going to get more widespread.
Actually, that is quite true, but not quite the way Folk means, it it would seem.The short answer is "no," we are not describing anything new.
Folk, another claimant to having the true understanding Buddhism and no one else really understand it but Folk (and Ingram and their followers). Cool.Quite the contrary; we are resurrecting the original meanings of these words, meanings that have been obscured by centuries of hagiography, magical/mythical thinking, lack of critical thinking, and irresponsible credulity.
True enough, but I just do not find Ingram-ism/Folk-ism particularly convincing as arbiters of all of this.By far the most important message from the early Buddhist writings is that enlightenment is possible and a realistic goal for those who practice diligently.
Off to bed with me now. Pleasant dreams I shall have, and it will interesting to see how this has played out while I am away.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"
I have merged the "hardcore dharma" thread with the already inplace Ingram thread. Some of the earlier comments are worth reading.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723