Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:13 am

jcsuperstar wrote: can i put my wooden nickles in there?
That might get you some sort of credential.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
Prasadachitta
Posts: 974
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:52 am
Location: San Francisco (The Mission) Ca USA
Contact:

Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by Prasadachitta » Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:08 pm

tiltbillings wrote:And I'd add to that the good old American idiom: Don't take any wooden nickels.
My Grandpa always says that to me. I always thought it would be cool to get him a wooden nickel.
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 1443
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm

Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by Virgo » Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:20 pm

PeterB wrote:My " Stream Winner" file hovers between " Myths To Live By"..and " I wonder How That Extraneous Embroidery Got There ( Bet it had nothing to do with the Buddha ) ".
As I said in another thread the whole concept reeks of a spiritual movement reaching a point where it becomes institutional and starts becoming hierarchical, both in the sense of generals and privates, and an elite and non elite.
So my advice re " stream entry" would be leave it, and find something more constructive to concern ourselves with.
This would have several positive effects. It would free up lots of time to actually practice, which might include helping out at one local Old Folks Home or something similar. It would also rather undermine the claims of those who make claims.
They would have to stop pulling out the Noble One card if the result was that everyone tittered rather than just a few tittering as now... :lol: It would be as meaningful as if they declared themselves to be a boiled egg.
Do you think the idea of stream-entry came into being after the Buddha?

PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by PeterB » Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:33 pm

Virgo wrote:
PeterB wrote:My " Stream Winner" file hovers between " Myths To Live By"..and " I wonder How That Extraneous Embroidery Got There ( Bet it had nothing to do with the Buddha ) ".
As I said in another thread the whole concept reeks of a spiritual movement reaching a point where it becomes institutional and starts becoming hierarchical, both in the sense of generals and privates, and an elite and non elite.
So my advice re " stream entry" would be leave it, and find something more constructive to concern ourselves with.
This would have several positive effects. It would free up lots of time to actually practice, which might include helping out at one local Old Folks Home or something similar. It would also rather undermine the claims of those who make claims.
They would have to stop pulling out the Noble One card if the result was that everyone tittered rather than just a few tittering as now... :lol: It would be as meaningful as if they declared themselves to be a boiled egg.
Do you think the idea of stream-entry came into being after the Buddha?
Well after. And was then inserted in.

Reductor
Posts: 1382
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:52 am
Location: Alberta, Canada

Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by Reductor » Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:50 pm

PeterB wrote:
Virgo wrote: Do you think the idea of stream-entry came into being after the Buddha?
Well after. And was then inserted in.
What aspects in the canon suggest that this scheme of progress was inserted?
Last edited by Reductor on Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
bodom
Posts: 6261
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by bodom » Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:42 pm

PeterB wrote:So my advice re " stream entry" would be leave it, and find something more constructive to concern ourselves with.


I think I will stick with the Buddha's advice and strive for stream entry as if my hair were on fire the way he advised.

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:59 pm

thereductor wrote:
PeterB wrote:
Virgo wrote: Do you think the idea of stream-entry came into being after the Buddha?
Well after. And was then inserted in.
What aspects in the canon suggest that this scheme of progress was inserted?
It would be interesting to see what the suttas say and then what the commentaries say.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Kenshou
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by Kenshou » Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:06 pm

thereductor wrote:What aspects in the canon suggest that this scheme of progress was inserted?
Yes, I second this question. It would be interesting.

I have always figured that the 4 stages of enlightenment were possibly a little more like useful generalizations and guidelines. Well, besides the last one, since if you haven't found the end of the road you simply aren't done. But anyway, more general and less of a set-in-stone progression than we tend to think of it these days.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:50 pm

Kenshou wrote:
thereductor wrote:What aspects in the canon suggest that this scheme of progress was inserted?
Yes, I second this question. It would be interesting.

I have always figured that the 4 stages of enlightenment were possibly a little more like useful generalizations and guidelines. Well, besides the last one, since if you haven't found the end of the road you simply aren't done. But anyway, more general and less of a set-in-stone progression than we tend to think of it these days.
To claim such an insertion would really require a very careful textual analysis. Again, more interesting question would be the sutta presentation of the four ariya in contrast (if any) to the commentarial presentation.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

fabianfred
Posts: 158
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:06 am

Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by fabianfred » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:33 am

bodom wrote:
PeterB wrote:So my advice re " stream entry" would be leave it, and find something more constructive to concern ourselves with.


I think I will stick with the Buddha's advice and strive for stream entry as if my hair were on fire the way he advised.

:anjali:
absolutely... :jumping: :anjali:

My first teacher LP Jaran teaches the 16 yana steps to stream-entry following the Mahasi Sayadaw method.
My present teacher Supawan Green teaches that we could achieve Sottapanna or even Sagdagami without realising it.
My teacher the abbot at Wat Rampoeng, Chiangmai says that since we are all unique some get all the steps...some leapfrog.... just practice and do not worry or try to force yourself to meditate upon each step.

IMHO Stream-entry is certainly possible. The Buddha taught that as long as there are people practicing the Four Foundations of Mindfulness then there will be Sottapannas and therefore Arahants.
I hope to achive the safety of Stream-entry in this life...and mindfulness is the way to do it.

There are three 'strengths' of Sottapanna....one will reach Arahant in only one more life...one in three or four....and one in the maximum of seven lives.

Clayton
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:29 pm

Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by Clayton » Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:29 am

Hey everyone. I guess I'll jump into the discussion... first of all Nick is a good friend and Dharma brother of mine... its easy to understand why he could get defensive in this thread. To be fair what our teacher proposes is different from the buddhist 'party line' so of course we are going to differ in opinions with a forum catering to relatively orthodox thereavada practitioners. However I think the point my friend was trying to make *if I may be so bold* is basically to encourage everyone to not let our pre-concieved notions stand in the way. To pursue spiritual insight with as much vigor as we can muster. Stream entry is certainly possible... Kornfield writes in After the Ecstasy the Laundry that Ajahn Chah once remarked that if you spent 6 months at his monastery and didn't get stream entry he didn't have any idea what you might doing. I think the 'hardcore dharma' movement is a natural reaction to people acting as if this stuff is unattainable. Sometimes it might be conducted in a way that seems (or is) abrasive... but I think for the most part intentions are good on all sides...

Metta,

Clayton

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:59 am

Clayton wrote:Hey everyone. I guess I'll jump into the discussion... first of all Nick is a good friend and Dharma brother of mine... its easy to understand why he could get defensive in this thread. To be fair what our teacher proposes is different from the buddhist 'party line' so of course we are going to differ in opinions with a forum catering to relatively orthodox thereavada practitioners.
"Relatively orthodox thereavada [sic] practitioners" who take seriously the teachings of the Buddha, seeing the suttas as the touchstone for what it is that the Buddha taught.
However I think the point my friend was trying to make *if I may be so bold* is basically to encourage everyone to not let our pre-concieved notions stand in the way. To pursue spiritual insight with as much vigor as we can muster.
Yes, well, that is to state the obvious.
Stream entry is certainly possible... Kornfield writes in After the Ecstasy the Laundry that Ajahn Chah once remarked that if you spent 6 months at his monastery and didn't get stream entry he didn't have any idea what you might doing. I think the 'hardcore dharma' movement is a natural reaction to people acting as if this stuff is unattainable.
Stream entry is, indeed, possible, but it need not - should not - become a credential, nor need we obsess over unusual experiences, reading into them more than they are. A story about Jack Kornfield:
After only a year and a half of practice at Wat Ba Pong, one American [Jack Kornfield] asked and received permission to travel and study with other Thai and Burmese teachers. A year or two later, he returned full of tales of his travels, of many months of extraordinary and intensive practice and of a number of remarkable experiences. . . .
Then the Western monk went to the cottage of Achaan Sumedho, the senior Western disciple of Achaan Chah, and told all his stories and adventures, his new understandings and great insights into practice. Sumedho listened in silence and prepared afternoon tea from the roots of certain forest plants. When the stories were completed and the insights recounted, Sumedho smiled and said, "Ah, how wonderful. Something else to let go of." Only that.
For all that has been said here, the best advice from an Ariya. Only that.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

5heaps
Posts: 334
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:19 am

Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by 5heaps » Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:11 am

Clayton wrote:I think the 'hardcore dharma' movement is a natural reaction to people acting as if this stuff is unattainable.
hey, its more like, the things that are attained may not deserve the names being given.
there are hidden qualities and unpredictable logical reasonings built into anatta and anicca which if they are not mentioned or clearly ascertained and discussed when somebody brings them up only illustrates improper realization.

there are many excellent meditators and even scientists/mathematicians who can observe either directly or through inference very minuscule events. they then use this to eradicate the ordinary idea conditioned by ordinary perception of things being very substantial. when meditators in particular apply this with concentration to themselves and to their desires and aversions there will obviously be profound changes, which can themselves trigger old seeds from a long time ago.

realizing that things only last a moment and then die immediately is the classic realization that does not carry its scope nearly far enough. this is because that moment is itself still misunderstood. though coarse atta which is a mistaken belief is eliminated subtle atta which is a mistaken mode of being aware still persists, which is why it seems to the meditator that the dying out of that moment happens through the function/power/will of that moment even though this makes no sense (ie. the moment isnt around at the time of dying to have caused it, therefore it should be impossible for it to die immediately).
.
.
.
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."

User avatar
jcsuperstar
Posts: 1915
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:15 am
Location: alaska
Contact:

Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by jcsuperstar » Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:18 am

Clayton wrote:Hey everyone. I guess I'll jump into the discussion... first of all Nick is a good friend and Dharma brother of mine... its easy to understand why he could get defensive in this thread. To be fair what our teacher proposes is different from the Buddhist 'party line' so of course we are going to differ in opinions with a forum catering to relatively orthodox thereavada practitioners. ...
well that is the problem isn't it? to orthodox theravadins it would seem there is either
A. a lowing of the bar
or
B. a redefinition of terms
in regards to A, we would say what then is the point of such a claim? go further, do better unless "you" are in fact the one saying such states aren't possible?
and in regards to B, we've seen this before; Mahayana. so maybe we're not even on the same page in regards to what the path is, so there isn't even a way we can agree even if we wanted to?
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by PeterB » Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:57 am

bodom wrote:
PeterB wrote:So my advice re " stream entry" would be leave it, and find something more constructive to concern ourselves with.


I think I will stick with the Buddha's advice and strive for stream entry as if my hair were on fire the way he advised.

:anjali:
And if . just out of interest it could be adequately shown that the teachings on stream entry etc were a later insertion...or if it could be demonstrated that the Buddha meant it as a metaphor only..would your hair go out ?

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 69 guests