Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
Prasadachitta
Posts: 974
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:52 am
Location: San Francisco (The Mission) Ca USA
Contact:

Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by Prasadachitta » Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:29 pm

Hi All,
I find that an effective way to utilize the teaching on "Stream Entry" is by allowing it to be relational. For example I look into the effect that my sense of progressing or falling back on the path has on me and notice if it lends to energy and striving or to comparing myself to others. I have noticed that some level of joyful reflection on the positive effects of my practice on myself and others can help guide me towards a more steady application of effort. However it can also have a disintegrating effect if the intention of such a reflection starts to come from a desire to approximate or reproduce past ways of being. This kind of veering towards a desire for what is limited or produced comes about from losing sight of how effects flow out of intentions. I think it might be a good measure of stream entry to ask "Do I forget how effects flow from intentions?" My opinion is that a stream winner knows this at all times and because of this she does not look to comparisons to measure and she does not look to specific practices to define the way forward. She looks first and foremost to intentions. Unless those intentions are based in waking up and letting go she does not act out of them. Because of this she has no doubt about her activities but she continually assesses their efficacy. This is quite an impressive feet in my opinion. It does not mean she is free from the arising of all kinds of errant intentions. I think that If we define stream entry as being indicated by an experience the teaching loses its relational value. If it is truly a freedom from falling back it must include a quality which is consistently influential and decisive. It is possible that I have set a higher bar than the Buddha intended and it is also possible that I have set a lower bar. What is important is that the idea of achieving it keeps me motivated and inspired.


Metta


Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:40 pm

gabrielbranbury wrote: Because of this she has no doubt about her activities but she continually assesses their efficacy.
Certitude is not always a safe basis for judging one's progress.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
Prasadachitta
Posts: 974
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:52 am
Location: San Francisco (The Mission) Ca USA
Contact:

Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by Prasadachitta » Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:54 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
gabrielbranbury wrote: Because of this she has no doubt about her activities but she continually assesses their efficacy.
Certitude is not always a safe basis for judging one's progress.
Hi Tilt,

I agree, but I don't think lack of doubt necessarily means a state of certitude. In my opinion certitude undermines the assessment of efficacy. On the other hand I dont see why doubt is necessary to motivate critical assessment. One only needs to understand that things change.

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:02 pm

gabrielbranbury wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
gabrielbranbury wrote: Because of this she has no doubt about her activities but she continually assesses their efficacy.
Certitude is not always a safe basis for judging one's progress.
Hi Tilt,

I agree, but I don't think lack of doubt necessarily means a state of certitude. In my opinion certitude undermines the assessment of efficacy. On the other hand I dont see why doubt is necessary to motivate critical assessment. One only needs to understand that things change.

Gabe
It is a tricky dance. "One only needs to understand that things change," and let go of any certitude.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
Prasadachitta
Posts: 974
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:52 am
Location: San Francisco (The Mission) Ca USA
Contact:

Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by Prasadachitta » Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:22 pm

It is a tricky dance. "One only needs to understand that things change," and let go of any certitude.
MMM

Tricky indeed.

I was referring to an Aryan practitioner after all.

Its something to strive for and so I continue to dance the two step.

Take care

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

dude
Posts: 52
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:18 am

Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by dude » Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:09 am

nibs wrote:Hello all,
Interesting thread.

Was wondering...do you guys have the belief that you are able to get stream entry in this lifetime? Do think it is possible? And if so how do you think it is possible? How will it happen? What do you have to do to get it to happen?

Also, apart from the mostly traditional text references adhered to here on what stream entry is supposed to be all about, what actually happens at a path moment in your opinion? What in your opinion is the phenomenology of the experience? What changes within the mind occur after a path moment, phenomenologically speaking? I've read the thread on Virgo's claim. He seems to just quote textual references only and does not share any of the phenomenology that is discussed at places like the Dharma Overground and Kenneth Folk Dharma. So I seriously doubt those claims.

I don't know much about the suttas, so forgive my ignorance of them. I come from a strictly practice orientated approach. I am very interested in answers to the questions I asked and don't come here to argue with anyone. Do you guys actually meditate with the objective of achieving stream entry or do you think it is something that may or may not occur in some distant future?

I come in peace by the way from the Dharma Overground and KennethFolkDharma in the spirit that Ben did when he posted on the DhO.

nibs
Determining to seek the Way nurtures the seed of buddha nature inherent in all living beings. Continued effort leads to stream entry.
The rest is details and head tripping, as we have seen right here.
Yes it can happen in this lifetime.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:23 am

dude wrote:Yes it can happen in this lifetime.
And you don't even need a buddha-nature for it to happen.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Shonin
Posts: 583
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:11 am

Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by Shonin » Mon Aug 16, 2010 6:01 am

tiltbillings wrote:And you don't even need a buddha-nature for it to happen.
It would only get in the way

PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by PeterB » Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:03 am

I used to have a Buddha Nature but I mislaid it...I thought I would post a notice in the small ads with a reward, then I discovered that I didn't miss it so I didn't bother.
So I moved it from my "myths to live by" file to "comparative religion ".

User avatar
jcsuperstar
Posts: 1915
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:15 am
Location: alaska
Contact:

Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by jcsuperstar » Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:15 am

since the title of this thread is now advice for stream entry i thought I'd post the Buddha's advice
Association with people of integrity is a factor for stream-entry.
Listening to the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry.
Appropriate attention is a factor for stream-entry.
Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry.
— SN 55.5
take it or leave it. :heart:
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by PeterB » Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:29 am

My " Stream Winner" file hovers between " Myths To Live By"..and " I wonder How That Extraneous Embroidery Got There ( Bet it had nothing to do with the Buddha ) ".
As I said in another thread the whole concept reeks of a spiritual movement reaching a point where it becomes institutional and starts becoming hierarchical, both in the sense of generals and privates, and an elite and non elite.
So my advice re " stream entry" would be leave it, and find something more constructive to concern ourselves with.
This would have several positive effects. It would free up lots of time to actually practice, which might include helping out at one local Old Folks Home or something similar. It would also rather undermine the claims of those who make claims.
They would have to stop pulling out the Noble One card if the result was that everyone tittered rather than just a few tittering as now... :lol: It would be as meaningful as if they declared themselves to be a boiled egg.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:30 am

And I'd add to that the good old American idiom: Don't take any wooden nickels.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
jcsuperstar
Posts: 1915
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:15 am
Location: alaska
Contact:

Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by jcsuperstar » Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:33 am

tiltbillings wrote:And I'd add to that the good old American idiom: Don't take any wooden nickels.
wait, what? well now what do i do with them? :tantrum:
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:49 am

jcsuperstar wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And I'd add to that the good old American idiom: Don't take any wooden nickels.
wait, what? well now what do i do with them? :tantrum:
Okay, lets start from a different angle: Do look a gift horse in the mouth.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
jcsuperstar
Posts: 1915
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:15 am
Location: alaska
Contact:

Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by jcsuperstar » Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:03 am

tiltbillings wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And I'd add to that the good old American idiom: Don't take any wooden nickels.
wait, what? well now what do i do with them? :tantrum:
Okay, lets start from a different angle: Do look a gift horse in the mouth.
can i put my wooden nickles in there?
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Gszab, StormBorn and 57 guests