Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
dude
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Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by dude » Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:09 am

nibs wrote:Hello all,
Interesting thread.

Was wondering...do you guys have the belief that you are able to get stream entry in this lifetime? Do think it is possible? And if so how do you think it is possible? How will it happen? What do you have to do to get it to happen?

Also, apart from the mostly traditional text references adhered to here on what stream entry is supposed to be all about, what actually happens at a path moment in your opinion? What in your opinion is the phenomenology of the experience? What changes within the mind occur after a path moment, phenomenologically speaking? I've read the thread on Virgo's claim. He seems to just quote textual references only and does not share any of the phenomenology that is discussed at places like the Dharma Overground and Kenneth Folk Dharma. So I seriously doubt those claims.

I don't know much about the suttas, so forgive my ignorance of them. I come from a strictly practice orientated approach. I am very interested in answers to the questions I asked and don't come here to argue with anyone. Do you guys actually meditate with the objective of achieving stream entry or do you think it is something that may or may not occur in some distant future?

I come in peace by the way from the Dharma Overground and KennethFolkDharma in the spirit that Ben did when he posted on the DhO.

nibs
Determining to seek the Way nurtures the seed of buddha nature inherent in all living beings. Continued effort leads to stream entry.
The rest is details and head tripping, as we have seen right here.
Yes it can happen in this lifetime.

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tiltbillings
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Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:23 am

dude wrote:Yes it can happen in this lifetime.
And you don't even need a buddha-nature for it to happen.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Shonin
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Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by Shonin » Mon Aug 16, 2010 6:01 am

tiltbillings wrote:And you don't even need a buddha-nature for it to happen.
It would only get in the way

PeterB
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Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by PeterB » Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:03 am

I used to have a Buddha Nature but I mislaid it...I thought I would post a notice in the small ads with a reward, then I discovered that I didn't miss it so I didn't bother.
So I moved it from my "myths to live by" file to "comparative religion ".

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jcsuperstar
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Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by jcsuperstar » Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:15 am

since the title of this thread is now advice for stream entry i thought I'd post the Buddha's advice
Association with people of integrity is a factor for stream-entry.
Listening to the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry.
Appropriate attention is a factor for stream-entry.
Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry.
— SN 55.5
take it or leave it. :heart:
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

PeterB
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Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by PeterB » Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:29 am

My " Stream Winner" file hovers between " Myths To Live By"..and " I wonder How That Extraneous Embroidery Got There ( Bet it had nothing to do with the Buddha ) ".
As I said in another thread the whole concept reeks of a spiritual movement reaching a point where it becomes institutional and starts becoming hierarchical, both in the sense of generals and privates, and an elite and non elite.
So my advice re " stream entry" would be leave it, and find something more constructive to concern ourselves with.
This would have several positive effects. It would free up lots of time to actually practice, which might include helping out at one local Old Folks Home or something similar. It would also rather undermine the claims of those who make claims.
They would have to stop pulling out the Noble One card if the result was that everyone tittered rather than just a few tittering as now... :lol: It would be as meaningful as if they declared themselves to be a boiled egg.

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tiltbillings
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Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:30 am

And I'd add to that the good old American idiom: Don't take any wooden nickels.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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jcsuperstar
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Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by jcsuperstar » Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:33 am

tiltbillings wrote:And I'd add to that the good old American idiom: Don't take any wooden nickels.
wait, what? well now what do i do with them? :tantrum:
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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tiltbillings
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Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:49 am

jcsuperstar wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And I'd add to that the good old American idiom: Don't take any wooden nickels.
wait, what? well now what do i do with them? :tantrum:
Okay, lets start from a different angle: Do look a gift horse in the mouth.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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jcsuperstar
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Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by jcsuperstar » Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:03 am

tiltbillings wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And I'd add to that the good old American idiom: Don't take any wooden nickels.
wait, what? well now what do i do with them? :tantrum:
Okay, lets start from a different angle: Do look a gift horse in the mouth.
can i put my wooden nickles in there?
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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tiltbillings
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Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:13 am

jcsuperstar wrote: can i put my wooden nickles in there?
That might get you some sort of credential.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Prasadachitta
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Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by Prasadachitta » Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:08 pm

tiltbillings wrote:And I'd add to that the good old American idiom: Don't take any wooden nickels.
My Grandpa always says that to me. I always thought it would be cool to get him a wooden nickel.
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

Virgo
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Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by Virgo » Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:20 pm

PeterB wrote:My " Stream Winner" file hovers between " Myths To Live By"..and " I wonder How That Extraneous Embroidery Got There ( Bet it had nothing to do with the Buddha ) ".
As I said in another thread the whole concept reeks of a spiritual movement reaching a point where it becomes institutional and starts becoming hierarchical, both in the sense of generals and privates, and an elite and non elite.
So my advice re " stream entry" would be leave it, and find something more constructive to concern ourselves with.
This would have several positive effects. It would free up lots of time to actually practice, which might include helping out at one local Old Folks Home or something similar. It would also rather undermine the claims of those who make claims.
They would have to stop pulling out the Noble One card if the result was that everyone tittered rather than just a few tittering as now... :lol: It would be as meaningful as if they declared themselves to be a boiled egg.
Do you think the idea of stream-entry came into being after the Buddha?

PeterB
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Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by PeterB » Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:33 pm

Virgo wrote:
PeterB wrote:My " Stream Winner" file hovers between " Myths To Live By"..and " I wonder How That Extraneous Embroidery Got There ( Bet it had nothing to do with the Buddha ) ".
As I said in another thread the whole concept reeks of a spiritual movement reaching a point where it becomes institutional and starts becoming hierarchical, both in the sense of generals and privates, and an elite and non elite.
So my advice re " stream entry" would be leave it, and find something more constructive to concern ourselves with.
This would have several positive effects. It would free up lots of time to actually practice, which might include helping out at one local Old Folks Home or something similar. It would also rather undermine the claims of those who make claims.
They would have to stop pulling out the Noble One card if the result was that everyone tittered rather than just a few tittering as now... :lol: It would be as meaningful as if they declared themselves to be a boiled egg.
Do you think the idea of stream-entry came into being after the Buddha?
Well after. And was then inserted in.

Reductor
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Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by Reductor » Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:50 pm

PeterB wrote:
Virgo wrote: Do you think the idea of stream-entry came into being after the Buddha?
Well after. And was then inserted in.
What aspects in the canon suggest that this scheme of progress was inserted?
Last edited by Reductor on Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bodom
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Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by bodom » Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:42 pm

PeterB wrote:So my advice re " stream entry" would be leave it, and find something more constructive to concern ourselves with.


I think I will stick with the Buddha's advice and strive for stream entry as if my hair were on fire the way he advised.

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

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tiltbillings
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Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:59 pm

thereductor wrote:
PeterB wrote:
Virgo wrote: Do you think the idea of stream-entry came into being after the Buddha?
Well after. And was then inserted in.
What aspects in the canon suggest that this scheme of progress was inserted?
It would be interesting to see what the suttas say and then what the commentaries say.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Kenshou
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Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by Kenshou » Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:06 pm

thereductor wrote:What aspects in the canon suggest that this scheme of progress was inserted?
Yes, I second this question. It would be interesting.

I have always figured that the 4 stages of enlightenment were possibly a little more like useful generalizations and guidelines. Well, besides the last one, since if you haven't found the end of the road you simply aren't done. But anyway, more general and less of a set-in-stone progression than we tend to think of it these days.

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tiltbillings
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Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:50 pm

Kenshou wrote:
thereductor wrote:What aspects in the canon suggest that this scheme of progress was inserted?
Yes, I second this question. It would be interesting.

I have always figured that the 4 stages of enlightenment were possibly a little more like useful generalizations and guidelines. Well, besides the last one, since if you haven't found the end of the road you simply aren't done. But anyway, more general and less of a set-in-stone progression than we tend to think of it these days.
To claim such an insertion would really require a very careful textual analysis. Again, more interesting question would be the sutta presentation of the four ariya in contrast (if any) to the commentarial presentation.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

fabianfred
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Re: "advice for stream entry"

Post by fabianfred » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:33 am

bodom wrote:
PeterB wrote:So my advice re " stream entry" would be leave it, and find something more constructive to concern ourselves with.


I think I will stick with the Buddha's advice and strive for stream entry as if my hair were on fire the way he advised.

:anjali:
absolutely... :jumping: :anjali:

My first teacher LP Jaran teaches the 16 yana steps to stream-entry following the Mahasi Sayadaw method.
My present teacher Supawan Green teaches that we could achieve Sottapanna or even Sagdagami without realising it.
My teacher the abbot at Wat Rampoeng, Chiangmai says that since we are all unique some get all the steps...some leapfrog.... just practice and do not worry or try to force yourself to meditate upon each step.

IMHO Stream-entry is certainly possible. The Buddha taught that as long as there are people practicing the Four Foundations of Mindfulness then there will be Sottapannas and therefore Arahants.
I hope to achive the safety of Stream-entry in this life...and mindfulness is the way to do it.

There are three 'strengths' of Sottapanna....one will reach Arahant in only one more life...one in three or four....and one in the maximum of seven lives.

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