Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Locked
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:37 am

Virgo wrote: OK. I give a few brief quotes from the Vism to show this. . . .
Nothing new here. You are just repeating the VM. Again, see what retro is up to and give this a rest.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Virgo
Posts: 1424
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm

Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by Virgo » Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:44 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote: OK. I give a few brief quotes from the Vism to show this. . . .
Nothing new here. You are just repeating the VM. Again, see what retro is up to and give this a rest.
They explain the necessity of the "soil" in developing wisdom. And I use them to show what the soil is to show that Mahasi doesn't teach it.

Then they explain what the "trunk" is and how each part of it is approached. I use them to show exactly what the trunk is and show they are absent from Mahasi.

Take care,

Kevin

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:48 am

Virgo wrote: They explain the necessity of the "soil" in developing wisdom. And I use them to show what the soil is to show that Mahasi doesn't teach it.

Then they explain what the "trunk" is and how each part of it is approached. I use them to show exactly what the trunk is and show they are absent from Mahasi.
You give us no reason why we should read the text the way you do. You do not tell us what Mahasi Sayadaw's teachings are in his words (accurately reflecting MS's position) and you do not tell us why the one is not congruent with the other. In other words, you have not told us any thing. Nothing new. Best at this point to move on.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Virgo
Posts: 1424
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm

Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by Virgo » Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:50 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote: They explain the necessity of the "soil" in developing wisdom. And I use them to show what the soil is to show that Mahasi doesn't teach it.

Then they explain what the "trunk" is and how each part of it is approached. I use them to show exactly what the trunk is and show they are absent from Mahasi.
You give us no reason why we should read the text the way you do. You do not tell us what Mahasi Sayadaw's teachings are in his words (accurately reflecting MS's position) and you do not tell us why the one is not congruent with the other. In other words, you have not told us any thing. Nothing new. Best at this point to move on.
You asked for quotations to disproved that Mahasis way is not in line with the Vism. I spent time compiling many quotes to show first the imprtance of the soil according to the Visuddhimagga and then the importance of the trunk. I gave quotes that showed what they are to show that they are absent in Mahasi system. This shows that his system is not in line with the Visuddhimagga. Apparently the page with the quotes is gone now as you feel there were too many. That is fine.

Kevin

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16164
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:57 am

Virgo wrote: I gave quotes that showed what they are to show that they are absent in Mahasi system.
Where did you show that they were absent? Many of the quotes are almost exactly what my teachers tell me.

Mike

Virgo
Posts: 1424
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm

Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by Virgo » Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:41 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Virgo wrote:materiallity and mentallity
Whether nama-rupa is understood as above or as name-and-form, seems as if it would have a pretty big bearing on these purifications of wisdom.

Metta,
Retro. :)
In Visuddhimmaga it is defined as materiallity, mentallity.

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 19932
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:44 am

Greetings Virgo,
Virgo wrote:In Visuddhimmaga it is defined as materiallity, mentallity.
In Nanamoli Bhikkhu's translation it is mentality and materiality... but is there certainty that his translation accurately reflects the pre-translated Visuddhimagga text? When he speaks thus, are the words he is translating 'nama' and 'rupa'?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:48 am

Virgo wrote: You asked for quotations to disproved that Mahasis way is not in line with the Vism. I spent time compiling many quotes to show first the imprtance of the soil according to the Visuddhimagga and then the importance of the trunk. I gave quotes that showed what they are to show that they are absent in Mahasi system. This shows that his system is not in line with the Visuddhimagga.
You seem not to quite get it that is not quite enough to simply say that something does not fit with this or that.
Apparently the page with the quotes is gone now as you feel there were too many. That is fine.
This page? http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 1b5#p80816 It is still there. Any other page, I know nothing about.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Virgo
Posts: 1424
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm

Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by Virgo » Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:49 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Virgo wrote: I gave quotes that showed what they are to show that they are absent in Mahasi system.
Where did you show that they were absent? Many of the quotes are almost exactly what my teachers tell me.

Mike
Does your meditaiton teacher (Mahasi style right?) tell you to explore the first purification of the five purifications of the trunk through The Four Elements, The Eighteen Elements, the Twelve Bases, The Aggregates, or in Brief with the Definition Based on the Four Primaries?

Does he teach you when you are done with that to review the conditions through those by ways of D.O (Dependent Origination) in Reverse, Forwards, by Kamma and Fruition, by why which way?

Also, how does he teach the soil?

I am not trying to be sarcastic Mike. I am just trying to see which ways of these he teaches so as to be in line with the traditional way of development as laid out in the Visuddhimmaga.

Thanks,

Kevin
Last edited by Virgo on Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

Virgo
Posts: 1424
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm

Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by Virgo » Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:50 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote: You asked for quotations to disproved that Mahasis way is not in line with the Vism. I spent time compiling many quotes to show first the imprtance of the soil according to the Visuddhimagga and then the importance of the trunk. I gave quotes that showed what they are to show that they are absent in Mahasi system. This shows that his system is not in line with the Visuddhimagga.
You seem not to quite get it that is not quite enough to simply say that something does not fit with this or that.
Apparently the page with the quotes is gone now as you feel there were too many. That is fine.
This page? http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 1b5#p80816 It is still there. Any other page, I know nothing about.
When these things (the soil and the trunk) are said to be the way in Visuddhimagga, it is a bit curious when they are absent from methods people claim are in line with it.

The page didn't appear for me at first. Sorry about that.

Kevin

Virgo
Posts: 1424
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm

Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by Virgo » Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:55 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Virgo,
Virgo wrote:In Visuddhimmaga it is defined as materiallity, mentallity.
In Nanamoli Bhikkhu's translation it is mentality and materiality... but is there certainty that his translation accurately reflects the pre-translated Visuddhimagga text? When he speaks thus, are the words he is translating 'nama' and 'rupa'?

Metta,
Retro. :)
I haven't read the Pali text Retro. But what he translates here as materiallity he defines as the four primary elements and the derived elements,etc. And what he translates as mentallity he lists as the different mental elements, cittas and cetasikas. He defines in them in various ways, but it always matches materiallity and mentallity in the text.

Kevin

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 19932
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:09 am

Greetings Kevin,

I know I wouldn't trust one single translator to accurately translate the suttas, so if I placed as heavy emphasis on the Visuddhimagga as you do, I certainly wouldn't be relying exclusively upon a single English translation, without knowing the Pali underlying it. This is especially so given the regard in which venerable Nanamoli is reported to have viewed the work - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4648" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . Furthermore, post Visuddhimagga translation, Nanamoli Bhikkhu's understanding of the Dhamma changed somewhat and when translating the Majjhima Nikaya, he translated certain terms in a different way to what he had done when translating the Visuddhimagga. Bhikkhu Bodhi didn't approve however, and took it upon himself to re-translate parts of Nanamoli Bhikkhu's original translation manuscript, back in line with the earlier precedents... hence the dual translatorship attributed to the Wisdom Books translation of the Majjhima Nikaya.

I guess how much confidence you place in Nanamoli Bhikkhu's translation is up to you to discern.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:18 am

Virgo wrote: When these things (the soil and the trunk) are said to be the way in Visuddhimagga, it is a bit curious when they are absent from methods people claim are in line with it.
Are you saying that the particulars of the practice outlined by Buddhaghosa is the only it can be or should be in put into practice in a particular order with absolutely no variation? Did the Buddha teach that? As for soil and trunk (a lovely anology), that is hardy neglected in the Mahasi Sayadaw training I have had. One of my first teachers, a direct student of Mahasi Sayadaw, knew sections of the VM by heart and used it frequently to make points. Nothing unusual in that.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Virgo
Posts: 1424
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm

Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by Virgo » Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:40 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Kevin,

I know I wouldn't trust one single translator to accurately translate the suttas, so if I placed as heavy emphasis on the Visuddhimagga as you do, I certainly wouldn't be relying exclusively upon a single English translation, without knowing the Pali underlying it. This is especially so given the regard in which venerable Nanamoli is reported to have viewed the work - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4648" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . Furthermore, post Visuddhimagga translation, Nanamoli Bhikkhu's understanding of the Dhamma changed somewhat and when translating the Majjhima Nikaya, he translated certain terms in a different way to what he had done when translating the Visuddhimagga. Bhikkhu Bodhi didn't approve however, and took it upon himself to re-translate parts of Nanamoli Bhikkhu's original translation manuscript, back in line with the earlier precedents... hence the dual translatorship attributed to the Wisdom Books translation of the Majjhima Nikaya.

I guess how much confidence you place in Nanamoli Bhikkhu's translation is up to you to discern.

Metta,
Retro. :)
We can be sure it is nama and rupa. Why? Because he doesn't just translate words here and there he translates whole paragraphs that detail the definitions with many words and terms. It would be odd if the original text said name and form (which it doesn't) if it then defined name through various cetasikas mental phenomena again and again through out the whole text such as when it takes about nama and how it is to be regarded by way of the sense bases as just the mental parts, or how 'mentallity' is all mental activity when it talks about the mental aggregate and mind objects, etc. These things are laid out with detail again and again so even if it was "name and form" which it is not, they are always defined respectively in the texts as mental things and physical things without consciousness.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:48 am

I am at work, so I do not have the book in front of me, but there is a detailed translation glossary in the back of the book listing the Pali terms and Ven Nanamoli's chosen translation for any particular term. While it may not be perfect, it is a very carefully done translation.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 43 guests