Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Virgo
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by Virgo » Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:28 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:
Please allow me to be more specific. . . . .
Nothing new here. No real argument. You simply claim that U Ba Khin and Mahasi Sayadaw fall short, but you don't even portray their position with their own words. Maybe when you formulate and present a real argument there can be a meaningful exchange, but this - as it is - is a waste of time.
If you wish to continue to claim that Mahasi and the rest are in line with Classical Dhamma, please explain where they cover the soil of widom, and then the trunk of wisdom, including all five purifications.

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... =60#p80798

You have not.

Thanks,

Kevin

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:35 am

Greetings,
Virgo wrote:materiallity and mentallity
Whether nama-rupa is understood as above or as name-and-form, seems as if it would have a pretty big bearing on these purifications of wisdom.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:38 am

Virgo wrote: If you wish to continue to claim that Mahasi and the rest are in line with Classical Dhamma,
The problem is that you have not presented his position accurately in his words; you have not shown how the VM you quoted must be read the way you are reading it and you have not shown that the VM quotes contradict Mahasi Sayadaw's teachings. All you have done is asserted it with out doing any of the hard work. You are the one making the claim against Mahasi Sayadaw, so the onus falls upon you to make an actual argument for your position that Mahasi Sayadaw runs counter to the VM, something you have yet to do.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:54 am

At this point, Kevin, why don't you see what Retro is is up to. It might be more interesting than the repetition of the same old stuff.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by Virgo » Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:34 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote: If you wish to continue to claim that Mahasi and the rest are in line with Classical Dhamma,
The problem is that you have not presented his position accurately in his words; you have not shown how the VM you quoted must be read the way you are reading it and you have not shown that the VM quotes contradict Mahasi Sayadaw's teachings. All you have done is asserted it with out doing any of the hard work. You are the one making the claim against Mahasi Sayadaw, so the onus falls upon you to make an actual argument for your position that Mahasi Sayadaw runs counter to the VM, something you have yet to do.
OK. I give a few brief quotes from the Vism to show this.
"HOW IS IT (Wisdom) DEVELOPED? Now the things classed as aggregates,
bases, elements, faculties, truths, dependent origination, etc., are
the soil of this understanding, and the [first] two purifications, namely,
purification of virtue and purification of consciousness, are its roots,
while the five purifications, namely, purification of view, purification by
overcoming doubt, purification by knowledge and vision of what is the
path and what is not the path, purification by knowledge and vision of
the way, and purification by knowledge and vision, are the trunk. Consequently,
one who is perfecting these should first fortify his knowledge
by learning and questioning about those things that are the 'soil' after he
has perfected the two purifications that are the 'roots', then he can develop
the five purifications that are the 'trunk9. This is in brief.

This shows that wisdom is developed first with the soil and then with the trunk.

Next what the soil consists of is shown. The first thing listed that should be understood is the Aggregates (beginning page 443, Nanamoli translation)

After that the other ones that should be understood are listed and detailed. After the Aggregates they are The Sense Bases, The Elements, The Faculties and the Truths, and lastly Dependent Origination. About this it is said:
Vism Ch XVIII, paragraph one:

"Now it was said earlier (Ch. XIV, §32) that he 'should first
fortify his knowledge by learning and questioning about those things that
are the "soil" after he has perfected the two purifications—purification
of virtue and purification of consciousness—that are the "roots"
...

2. But it was said above (Ch. XIV, §32) that 'The five purifications,
purification of view, purification by overcoming doubt, purification by
knowledge and vision of what is the path and what is not the path,
purification by knowledge and vision of the way, and purification by
knowledge and vision, are the "trunk"
Next comes the trunk section after understanding of the soil.

The first section of the trunk is the first purification. I quote:
"But one whose vehicle is pure insight, or that same aforesaid one
whose vehicle is serenity, discerns the four elements in brief or in detail
in one of the various ways given
in the chapter on the definition of the
four elements (Ch. XI, §27ff.). Then when the elements have become
clear in their correct essential characteristics... This is how one [meditator] defines mentality-materiality in detail
through the method of defining the four elements"
The author shows that there are only a few select ways of doing it and describes each one. The next is on the Eighteen Elements. I quote:
"Another does it by means of the eighteen elements. How? Here a
bhikkhu considers the elements thus: 'There are in this person the eye
element,... the mind-consciousness element'. Instead of taking the piece
of flesh variegated with white and black circles, having length and breath,
and fastened in the eye socket with a string of sinew, which the world
terms 'an eye', he defines as 'eye element' the eye sensitivity of the kind
described among the kinds of derived materiality in the Description of
the Aggregates (Ch. XIV, §47).
... (and so on)
Or by defintion of the Twelve Bases.
"Another does it by means of the twelve bases. How? He defines
as 'eye base' the sensitivity only, leaving out the fifty-three remaining
instances of materiality, in the way described for the eye element. And in
the way described there [he also defines] the elements of the ear, nose,
tongue, and body, as 'ear base, nose base, tongue base, body base'. He
defines five states that are their respective objective fields as 'visibledata
base, sound base, odour base, flavour base, tangible-data base'
."
Or...
"Another defines it more briefly than that by means of the aggregates.
How? Here a bhikkhu defines as 'the materiality aggregate' all the
following 27"...
etc.

However, the text states that:
"But if he has discerned materiality in one of these ways, and
while he is trying to discern the immaterial it does not become evident to
him owing to its subtlety, then he should not give up but should again
and again comprehend, give attention to, discern, and define materiality
only. For in proportion as materiality becomes quite definite, disentangled
and quite clear to him, so the immaterial states that have that
[materiality] as their object become plain of themselves too."
This shows that one should define materiallity first and later mentallity. It also shows that there are only five ways of approaching this level (The only one I did not quote about here is the Brief Definition Based on the Four Primaries but it is similar to the others).

In conclusion, about there first contemplations that make up the First Purification it says:
"The correct vision of mentality and materiality, which, after defining
mentality-materiality by these various methods, has been established
on the plane of non-confusion by overcoming the perception of a being,
is what should be understood as purification of view. Other terms for it
are 'defining of mentality-materiality' and 'delimitation of formations'."
This shows that one must define in this way to accomplish this level. I think these are absent from Mahasi and Goenka.

Now I will give quotes about the second purification. Are the contemplations of the secon purification present in Mahasi or Goenka?
"To begin with, he considers thus: 'Firstly this mentality-materiality
is not causeless, because if that were so, it would follow that [having no
causes to differentiate it,] it would be identical everywhere always and
for all. It has no Overlord, etc., because of the non-existence of any
Overlord, etc. (Ch. XVI, §85), over and above mentality-materiality. And
because, if people then argue that mentality-materiality itself is its Overlord,
etc., then it follows that their mentality-materiality, which they call
the Overlord, etc., would itself be causeless. Consequently there must be
a cause and a condition for it. What are they?'.

4. Having thus directed his attention to mentality-materiality's cause
and condition, he first discerns the cause and condition for the material
body in this way: 'When this body is born it is not born inside a blue, red
or white lotus or water-lily, etc., or inside a store of jewels or pearls,
etc.; on the contrary, like a worm in rotting fish"
The ways given are in the text.

One does it by way of contemplating that It's Occurance is Always Due to Conditions. This way:
After discerning the material body's conditions in this way, he again
discerns the mental body in the way beginning: 'Due to eye and to
visible object eye-consciousness arises' (S.ii,72; M.i,lll).
When he has thus seen that the occurrence of mentality-materiality
is due to conditions...
Another does it another specific way.
"Another, when he has seen that the formations called mentalitymateriality
arrive at ageing and that those that have aged dissolve, discerns
mentality-materiality's conditions by means of dependent origination
in reverse order in this way: 'This is called the ageing-and-death of
formations"
And there are set specific ways mentioned to review it. Again where are these found in Mahasi.

The lists go on and on for the third purification, fourth, etc.

I will skip those so as not to overload people with the reading at this time.
Another quote:

"'After he has perfected the two purifications that are
the "roots", then he can develop the five purifications that are the "trunk" '
(Ch. XIV, §32). And at this point the detailed exposition of the system
for developing understanding in the proper way as it has been handed
down is completed. So the question 'How should it be developed?' (Ch.
XIV, §32) is now answered."
This shows how wisdom is developed traditionally. These things are absent in modern systems. By way of this, one can conclude that they are not in line with how wisdom is developed according to ancient Theravada tradition.

Have a nice night.

Kevin
Last edited by Virgo on Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:08 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:37 am

Virgo wrote: OK. I give a few brief quotes from the Vism to show this. . . .
Nothing new here. You are just repeating the VM. Again, see what retro is up to and give this a rest.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by Virgo » Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:44 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote: OK. I give a few brief quotes from the Vism to show this. . . .
Nothing new here. You are just repeating the VM. Again, see what retro is up to and give this a rest.
They explain the necessity of the "soil" in developing wisdom. And I use them to show what the soil is to show that Mahasi doesn't teach it.

Then they explain what the "trunk" is and how each part of it is approached. I use them to show exactly what the trunk is and show they are absent from Mahasi.

Take care,

Kevin

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:48 am

Virgo wrote: They explain the necessity of the "soil" in developing wisdom. And I use them to show what the soil is to show that Mahasi doesn't teach it.

Then they explain what the "trunk" is and how each part of it is approached. I use them to show exactly what the trunk is and show they are absent from Mahasi.
You give us no reason why we should read the text the way you do. You do not tell us what Mahasi Sayadaw's teachings are in his words (accurately reflecting MS's position) and you do not tell us why the one is not congruent with the other. In other words, you have not told us any thing. Nothing new. Best at this point to move on.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Virgo
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by Virgo » Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:50 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote: They explain the necessity of the "soil" in developing wisdom. And I use them to show what the soil is to show that Mahasi doesn't teach it.

Then they explain what the "trunk" is and how each part of it is approached. I use them to show exactly what the trunk is and show they are absent from Mahasi.
You give us no reason why we should read the text the way you do. You do not tell us what Mahasi Sayadaw's teachings are in his words (accurately reflecting MS's position) and you do not tell us why the one is not congruent with the other. In other words, you have not told us any thing. Nothing new. Best at this point to move on.
You asked for quotations to disproved that Mahasis way is not in line with the Vism. I spent time compiling many quotes to show first the imprtance of the soil according to the Visuddhimagga and then the importance of the trunk. I gave quotes that showed what they are to show that they are absent in Mahasi system. This shows that his system is not in line with the Visuddhimagga. Apparently the page with the quotes is gone now as you feel there were too many. That is fine.

Kevin

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:57 am

Virgo wrote: I gave quotes that showed what they are to show that they are absent in Mahasi system.
Where did you show that they were absent? Many of the quotes are almost exactly what my teachers tell me.

Mike

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by Virgo » Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:41 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Virgo wrote:materiallity and mentallity
Whether nama-rupa is understood as above or as name-and-form, seems as if it would have a pretty big bearing on these purifications of wisdom.

Metta,
Retro. :)
In Visuddhimmaga it is defined as materiallity, mentallity.

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:44 am

Greetings Virgo,
Virgo wrote:In Visuddhimmaga it is defined as materiallity, mentallity.
In Nanamoli Bhikkhu's translation it is mentality and materiality... but is there certainty that his translation accurately reflects the pre-translated Visuddhimagga text? When he speaks thus, are the words he is translating 'nama' and 'rupa'?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:48 am

Virgo wrote: You asked for quotations to disproved that Mahasis way is not in line with the Vism. I spent time compiling many quotes to show first the imprtance of the soil according to the Visuddhimagga and then the importance of the trunk. I gave quotes that showed what they are to show that they are absent in Mahasi system. This shows that his system is not in line with the Visuddhimagga.
You seem not to quite get it that is not quite enough to simply say that something does not fit with this or that.
Apparently the page with the quotes is gone now as you feel there were too many. That is fine.
This page? http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 1b5#p80816 It is still there. Any other page, I know nothing about.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Virgo
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Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm

Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by Virgo » Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:49 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Virgo wrote: I gave quotes that showed what they are to show that they are absent in Mahasi system.
Where did you show that they were absent? Many of the quotes are almost exactly what my teachers tell me.

Mike
Does your meditaiton teacher (Mahasi style right?) tell you to explore the first purification of the five purifications of the trunk through The Four Elements, The Eighteen Elements, the Twelve Bases, The Aggregates, or in Brief with the Definition Based on the Four Primaries?

Does he teach you when you are done with that to review the conditions through those by ways of D.O (Dependent Origination) in Reverse, Forwards, by Kamma and Fruition, by why which way?

Also, how does he teach the soil?

I am not trying to be sarcastic Mike. I am just trying to see which ways of these he teaches so as to be in line with the traditional way of development as laid out in the Visuddhimmaga.

Thanks,

Kevin
Last edited by Virgo on Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by Virgo » Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:50 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote: You asked for quotations to disproved that Mahasis way is not in line with the Vism. I spent time compiling many quotes to show first the imprtance of the soil according to the Visuddhimagga and then the importance of the trunk. I gave quotes that showed what they are to show that they are absent in Mahasi system. This shows that his system is not in line with the Visuddhimagga.
You seem not to quite get it that is not quite enough to simply say that something does not fit with this or that.
Apparently the page with the quotes is gone now as you feel there were too many. That is fine.
This page? http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 1b5#p80816 It is still there. Any other page, I know nothing about.
When these things (the soil and the trunk) are said to be the way in Visuddhimagga, it is a bit curious when they are absent from methods people claim are in line with it.

The page didn't appear for me at first. Sorry about that.

Kevin

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