Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Alex123
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by Alex123 »

Dear RobertK2, Kevin, all,

As for "concentration is present in every citta" and thus it follows a suggestion about why develop it?"

I do hope that strong concentration is not required and that path is easier as opposed to harder. I am all for that...

However:

Do hell beings have "concentration"?
Do snipers have lots of concentration? If so, why aren't they awakened?
Why did the Buddha talk about DEVELOPMENT of concentration if it is alrady present?

If one teaches a Dhamma to a person down the street, will he achieve awakening?


There is a sutta that talks about achievement of stream while listening. If one notes carefully the requisites, then one will see that being free at that time from a defilement obstruction is a required thing. From what I remember, the dhutanga practices for example serve the purpose to suppress certain a defilements. Same for deep concentration on the level of 'access' and or above. Sure, concentration in and of itself doesn't make one awakened. But it can supress the a defilement obstruction AND creates lots of good kamma, so that when that person listens to the sutta, s/he could get awakened. Sure, some people may have been very pure by nature and didn't need to forcefully supress kilesas. Not everyone is like that...


"Endowed with these six qualities, a person is incapable of alighting on the lawfulness, the rightness of skillful mental qualities even when listening to the true Dhamma. Which six?

"He is endowed with a [present] kamma obstruction, a defilement obstruction, a result-of-[past]-kamma obstruction; he lacks conviction, has no desire [to listen], and has dull discernment.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Virgo
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by Virgo »

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:
Actually the Commentaries, abhidhamma, and all classical texts make it very clear that satipatthana even to the attainment of the level of nibbana can occur with normal samadhi (the same cetasika that arises with every citta). Nothing special needed but understanding based on the right accumulations in past lives.
Where in the suttas is this said? So there is nothing I can do to help this process along?
You can read chapters XIV, XV, XVI, XVII, XVIII, XIX, XX, XXI, and XXII of the Vism, where every aspect of developing wisdom is treated in very great pain-staking detail. Each and every inch of the development of understanding is gone over and described in deatail there.

Some of the Chapter Titles:

THE AGGREGATES
THE BASES AND ELEMENTS
THE FACULTIES AND TRUTHS
THE SOIL OF UNDERSTANDING—CONCLUSION:
DEPENDENT ORIGINATION
PURIFICATION OF VIEW
PURIFICATION BY OVERCOMING DOUBT
PURIFICATION BY KNOWLEDGE AND VISION OF WHAT IS AND WHAT IS NOT THE PATH
PURIFICATION BY KNOWLEDGE AND VISION OF THE WAY
PURIFICATION BY KNOWLEDGE AND VISION
THE BENEFITS IN DEVELOPING UNDERSTANDING

It should clear up all your questions, should you be interested.

This is the book you claim your teachers represent. Read it and see if it is so.

All the best,

Kevin
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mikenz66
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Kevin,
Virgo wrote: This is the book you claim your teachers represent. Read it and see if it is so.
It's a little pointless to keep telling people to study texts that they have already, and have already offered explanations to your objections. Clearly you understand these texts, and the teachings of a number of teachers over the past century or so, in a different way from many (most?) others.

I'm a little confused about your current arguments. I understand (but don't accept) the standard Khun Sujin students' view about development not being possible and that the texts don't contain "instructions". But from your posts here: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5154" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; you seem to have dropped that view, so it's no longer clear to me what exactly your objections are. They now seem to to with subtle differences over how one interprets the instructions.

Mike
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tiltbillings
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by tiltbillings »

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:
Actually the Commentaries, abhidhamma, and all classical texts make it very clear that satipatthana even to the attainment of the level of nibbana can occur with normal samadhi (the same cetasika that arises with every citta). Nothing special needed but understanding based on the right accumulations in past lives.
Where in the suttas is this said? So there is nothing I can do to help this process along?
You can read chapters XIV, XV, XVI, XVII, XVIII, XIX, XX, XXI, and XXII of the Vism, where every aspect of developing wisdom is treated in very great pain-staking detail. Each and every inch of the development of understanding is gone over and described in deatail there.

Some of the Chapter Titles:

THE AGGREGATES
THE BASES AND ELEMENTS
THE FACULTIES AND TRUTHS
THE SOIL OF UNDERSTANDING—CONCLUSION:
DEPENDENT ORIGINATION
PURIFICATION OF VIEW
PURIFICATION BY OVERCOMING DOUBT
PURIFICATION BY KNOWLEDGE AND VISION OF WHAT IS AND WHAT IS NOT THE PATH
PURIFICATION BY KNOWLEDGE AND VISION OF THE WAY
PURIFICATION BY KNOWLEDGE AND VISION
THE BENEFITS IN DEVELOPING UNDERSTANDING

It should clear up all your questions, should you be interested.

This is the book you claim your teachers represent. Read it and see if it is so.

All the best,

Kevin
You have not shown it does he does not and I have read it and I don't see what you do, but then I have not claimed to be extra-ordinary, but that is not the question I asked. Is there choice in practice?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Virgo
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by Virgo »

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:
You can read chapters XIV, XV, XVI, XVII, XVIII, XIX, XX, XXI, and XXII of the Vism, where every aspect of developing wisdom is treated in very great pain-staking detail. Each and every inch of the development of understanding is gone over and described in deatail there.

Some of the Chapter Titles:

THE AGGREGATES
THE BASES AND ELEMENTS
THE FACULTIES AND TRUTHS
THE SOIL OF UNDERSTANDING—CONCLUSION:
DEPENDENT ORIGINATION
PURIFICATION OF VIEW
PURIFICATION BY OVERCOMING DOUBT
PURIFICATION BY KNOWLEDGE AND VISION OF WHAT IS AND WHAT IS NOT THE PATH
PURIFICATION BY KNOWLEDGE AND VISION OF THE WAY
PURIFICATION BY KNOWLEDGE AND VISION
THE BENEFITS IN DEVELOPING UNDERSTANDING

It should clear up all your questions, should you be interested.

This is the book you claim your teachers represent. Read it and see if it is so.

All the best,

Kevin
You have not shown it does he does not and I have read it and I don't see what you do, but then I have not claimed to be extra-ordinary, but that is not the question I asked. Is there choice in practice?
Wether there is a choice or not is inconsequential. It doesn't allow you to learn what should be known to develop wisdom (the aggregates, the sense-bases, and so on) and doesn't show you how they should be regarded. Nor does it show how wisdom develops and what its causes and conditions are.

Nevertheless, we can say that conventionally there is a choice. We make choices everyday. However, ultimately there is just nama and rupa, that is to say citta, cetasika, and rupa. These arising elements are conditioned. When one hears dhamma it is a condition for it to be analyzed and chewed over by your mental consciousness. If there is panna arising, due to conditions, it will look at it deeply. If more panna arises, it may cause you to go out and seek more dhamma. It all depends on causes and conditions. There appears to be choices, just as there appears to be a doer. In reality there is no being, no person, no doer of any action.

I hope this answers your question,

Kevin
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tiltbillings
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by tiltbillings »

Virgo wrote:Wether there is a choice or not is inconsequential. It doesn't allow you to learn what should be known to develop wisdom (the aggregates, the sense-bases, and so on) and doesn't show you how they should be regarded. Nor does it show how wisdom develops and what its causes and conditions are.

Nevertheless, we can say that conventionally there is a choice. We make choices everyday. However, ultimately there is just nama and rupa, that is to say citta, cetasika, and rupa. These arising elements are conditioned. When one hears dhamma it is a condition for it to be analyzed and chewed over by your mental consciousness. If there is panna arising, due to conditions, it will look at it deeply. If more panna arises, it may cause you to go out and seek more dhamma. It all depends on causes and conditions. There appears to be choices, just as there appears to be a doer. In reality there is no being, no person, no doer of any action.

I hope this answers your question
And here you have it, folks, the rejection of kamma. That's not classical Dhamma.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Alex123
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by Alex123 »

Virgo wrote: There appears to be choices, just as there appears to be a doer. In reality there is no being, no person, no doer of any action.

I hope this answers your question,

Kevin

Please clarify,


1) Are there choices? yes or no
2) Are there actions being made? yes or no
3) Do actions have consequences? yes or no
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tiltbillings
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:
Virgo wrote: There appears to be choices, just as there appears to be a doer. In reality there is no being, no person, no doer of any action.

I hope this answers your question,

Kevin

Please clarify,


1) Are there choices? yes or no
2) Are there actions being made? yes or no
3) Do actions have consequences? yes or no
You can read forward a few msgs from this:

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 560#p56622" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

but mostly started reading backwards from the above msg.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Virgo
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by Virgo »

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:Wether there is a choice or not is inconsequential. It doesn't allow you to learn what should be known to develop wisdom (the aggregates, the sense-bases, and so on) and doesn't show you how they should be regarded. Nor does it show how wisdom develops and what its causes and conditions are.

Nevertheless, we can say that conventionally there is a choice. We make choices everyday. However, ultimately there is just nama and rupa, that is to say citta, cetasika, and rupa. These arising elements are conditioned. When one hears dhamma it is a condition for it to be analyzed and chewed over by your mental consciousness. If there is panna arising, due to conditions, it will look at it deeply. If more panna arises, it may cause you to go out and seek more dhamma. It all depends on causes and conditions. There appears to be choices, just as there appears to be a doer. In reality there is no being, no person, no doer of any action.

I hope this answers your question
And here you have it, folks, the rejection of kamma. That's not classical Dhamma.
The rejection of kamma?

Kevin
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Virgo
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by Virgo »

Alex123 wrote:
Virgo wrote: There appears to be choices, just as there appears to be a doer. In reality there is no being, no person, no doer of any action.

I hope this answers your question,

Kevin

Please clarify,


1) Are there choices? yes or no
2) Are there actions being made? yes or no
3) Do actions have consequences? yes or no
I will try to answer it like this. We make "choices" all the time. So, conventionally, yes there are choices... however, there is not a doer or a person to be found. Therefore no doer makes "choices". Yet they occur. How can a "choice" or a decision be made without a doer who makes such a choice? So in reality "choices" are "made" but not by a doer. What happens is cetasikas arise and pull in a certain direction. Those cetasikas pull in whicher direction they do based on how strong the cetasikas that arise are. The specific cetasikas that arise arise based upon accumulations in the citta.

Here's an example. Someone may get very angry when they are wronged. They may commit an act of violence or say foul words that they do not really want to say. However, the anger is so strong that they feel they went "out of control". So who made the decision to say the bad words or do violence? No one, the anger, by conditions arose so strongly that there was no other way things could go. If the anger did not arise as strongly and other cetasikas arose as well, then one be able to "stop oneself" from comitting the bad action even though one is tempted to. The difference is different cetasikas arose due to conditions and accumulations. So a "choice" appears to have been made not to commit the action, yet it was just the strength of the cetasikas that arose, by conditions that motivated this. The whole time we have self view so it appears it was because of a person.

Again there is not a doer or a person. How can a choice be made without an entity to make it? Therefore it is just conditioned nama and rupa that acts based on conditions and accumulations. It appears as choice. Is that to say I can't make the decision to study more dhamma more thoroughly tomorrow? Of course I can, but it is really just a result of certain cetasikas arising -- panna arising that wants to understand deeper, lobha for a good result, aversion to not understanding, and so on.

Kevin
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by retrofuturist »

That's an incredibly complicated way to explain cetana, imo.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by tiltbillings »

Virgo wrote:
I will try to answer it like this. We make "choices" all the time. So, conventionally, yes there are choices... however, there is not a doer or a person to be found.
You were, then, wrong to say there was no choice. So, we can do what is necessary for the cultivation of insight by the choices we make, such as practicing meditation.
Therefore no doer makes "choices". . . . and so on.
All very nice, and it is good to see that you agree that we do make choices which can lead to awakening. We can try to impersonalize it by this complicated Abdhidhamma language, but the reality is that we use, more than anything else, conventional language, which is the basis of how we see and interact with the world. The teachings of the Buddha as found in the suttas, which is not less true than the Abhidhamma, is centered around gaining insight into the very nature of the self that we imagine that we are. The use of the precepts, the cultivation of mindfulness and concentration, such things as giving and compassion all give us a basis for insight into our self.

While an Abhidhamma approach may be sufficient for awakening and uselful for some, it not necessary for awakening. As my signature says: "This being is bound to samsara, karma [choice] is his means for going beyond." - SN I, 38.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by Virgo »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Kevin,
Virgo wrote: This is the book you claim your teachers represent. Read it and see if it is so.
It's a little pointless to keep telling people to study texts that they have already, and have already offered explanations to your objections. Clearly you understand these texts, and the teachings of a number of teachers over the past century or so, in a different way from many (most?) others.

I'm a little confused about your current arguments. I understand (but don't accept) the standard Khun Sujin students' view about development not being possible and that the texts don't contain "instructions". But from your posts here: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5154" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; you seem to have dropped that view, so it's no longer clear to me what exactly your objections are. They now seem to to with subtle differences over how one interprets the instructions.

Mike
If they have read them, they should understand each individual aggregate and how each of them should be regarded. Each aggregate should be regarded in a specific way according to Vsm. It never says one should focus on hearing as it arises, or any other object when developing wisdom. It says hearing should be understood and regarded in a certain way. Essentially Vsm details the development of wisdom first by saying that there is no specific meditation method that can cause the vipassana insight knowledges to arise; however, that one should understand certain things intellectually while having sila and samadhi to help condition higher wisdom (and that the higher wisdom will only happen if the accumulations are there). First it describes understanding the aggregates. It details each aggregate so you understand them each in a detailed way and shows how each aggregate should be regarded differently by the person (each in its own certain specific way). After one does that then it explains that then one should understand by way of sense bases and says precisely how one should accomplish this. And so on, eventually ending in Dependent Origination. Again it says there is no technique to bring about wisdom but that one should clarify about these things and view and understand them correctly, which refines conceptual wisdom. It is clearly about understanding and regarding things in a certain way, intellectually (and the same goes for the Commy to the Satipatthana Sutta which I have asked people to take a closer look at too). It says one should do this while having sila and having a samattha subject of meditation. It says that concentration from samattha can be a helping support for wisdom.

My view is more in line with the Vsm now, I feel. I still think, as per the Vsm, that one can't cause wisdom on a deep level to come up, but that one can develop Right Understanding on the conceptual level about dhammas to help condition wisdom (in the way the Vsm teaches). Again, this helps but it also depends on accumulations from doing this in past lives. That is why one person attains nibbana a week after hearing the dhamma and one attains after 70 years, even though they both hear the same dhamma. This is not much different from how Khun Sujin teaches the development of wisdom, Mike. She does tell people that they should hear dhamma, listen to it, discuss it, and try to understand it conceptually as much as possible. Also, that people should try and think in terms of mental states, and urges people to also learn details about dhammas. The Vsm. is very much the same, except it shows one should learn about the aggregates first. That one should learn them one at a time and review them. One should know how to regard each aggregate in its own way. Then it says one should do so by Sense bases.. then this way.. then another way, and so on, reviewing. In that regard it is very similar but a bit different to how Khun Sujin teaches. I mean she teaches about the same aggregates and so on. It also says though, that one should intentionally practice sila and samattha, wether you reach jhana or not. It states that this can help condition wisdom. Sujin disagrees that these two things (sila and samattha) can be intentionally developed . She takes the approach that if they arise they arise, if they don't they don't, by conditions. I think she takes the part about not being able to cause higher wisdom to arise too far and thinks that it means that one cannot cause the wisdom that naturally refrains from sila to arise, so that one should not practice sila and so on (same for samattha). This is as far as I understand. Please forgive any mistakes. Have a nice day.

Kevin
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:That's an incredibly complicated way to explain cetana, imo.

Metta,
Retro. :)
There was a posting a few minutes ago in response to your comment that was deleted almost as soon as it was posted. It said simply: Devil's in the details. No truer words spoken.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by tiltbillings »

Virgo wrote: Sujin disagrees that these two things (sila and samattha) can be intentionally developed.
Of course they can be developed, which is the purpose of the precepts and the choice to cultivate them, and it is so of concentration. If one does not do anything, sila and calm will never arise.
She takes the approach that if they arise they arise, if they don't they don't, by conditions. I think she takes the part about not being able to cause higher wisdom to arise too far and thinks that it means that one cannot cause the wisdom that naturally refrains from sila to arise, so that one should not practice sila and so on (same for samattha). This is as far as I understand. Please forgive any mistakes. Have a nice day.

Kevin
Nice to see that you disagree with your teacher, assuming that you are portraying her position accurately. The bottom line is that the Buddha's teachings are about the choices we have in bringing to an end to our dukkha.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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