Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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bodom
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by bodom » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:16 am

Hi RobertK

Check out Analayo's Satipatthana sutta commentary, pg 73, where he gives citations to suttas that do not mention jhana as part of right concentration.

:anjali:
The heart of the path is so simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice.

Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing.

Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this-just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle.

- Ajahn Chah

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by robertk » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:30 am

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:
Just to clarify Tilt. Do you agree that the section I cited from the satipatthan sutta also includes Samma samadhi (urinating and defecating etc.). Or do you think those actions in the sutta are excluded from right concentration?
I have already answered that, quite clearly: But the Buddha advocated that one be mindful/clear comphrehending of such a thing, and being mindful [in this context] requires a degree of concentration.
Thanks.
According to the Abhidhamma and Commentaries there is always khanika samadhi even when one is conventionally distracted. So one focusses or doesn't focus, feels bored or excited, happy or sad, khanika samadhi is there; and it is certainly there when there is sati.
So khanika samadhi (momentary concentration) is alwasy arising with akusala and kusala mindstates.

One might concentrate, while defecating, on hardness or pressure, or feeling or smell, and hope that sati is also present. However the causes for sati-sampajana to arise don't depend on focusing or trying or hoping.

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by robertk » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:34 am

bodom wrote:Hi RobertK

Check out Analayo's Satipatthana sutta commentary, pg 73, where he gives citations to suttas that do not mention jhana as part of right concentration.

:anjali:
as I don't have the said book that is hard. However, as my first posts also gave definitions where mundane jhana was explained as being one type of right concentration I don't see any conflict.

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:21 pm

robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:
Just to clarify Tilt. Do you agree that the section I cited from the satipatthan sutta also includes Samma samadhi (urinating and defecating etc.). Or do you think those actions in the sutta are excluded from right concentration?
I have already answered that, quite clearly: But the Buddha advocated that one be mindful/clear comphrehending of such a thing, and being mindful [in this context] requires a degree of concentration.
Thanks.
According to the Abhidhamma and Commentaries there is always khanika samadhi even when one is conventionally distracted. So one focusses or doesn't focus, feels bored or excited, happy or sad, khanika samadhi is there; and it is certainly there when there is sati.
So khanika samadhi (momentary concentration) is alwasy arising with akusala and kusala mindstates.

One might concentrate, while defecating, on hardness or pressure, or feeling or smell, and hope that sati is also present. However the causes for sati-sampajana to arise don't depend on focusing or trying or hoping.
So, such practices as outlined by U Ba Khin and Mahasi Sayadaw are efficacious.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by Virgo » Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:59 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:Lets go further into the satipatthana sutta (sometimes I wonder if perople only read the first section about breath).
I guess if we say that here is direct evidence that sitting meditation is equated with mindfulness and concentration then how about the part while going to the toilet: because I am yet to see someone equate defecation with samma samadhi and yet quite obviously it is as suitable a time (according to the satipatthana sutta) as any other for samma samadhi to be cultivated.
But the Buddha advocated that one be mindful/clear comphrehending of such a thing, and being mindful requires a degree of concentration.
Concentration arises with every citta. With it is right or wrong depends.

Kevin
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:17 pm

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:Lets go further into the satipatthana sutta (sometimes I wonder if perople only read the first section about breath).
I guess if we say that here is direct evidence that sitting meditation is equated with mindfulness and concentration then how about the part while going to the toilet: because I am yet to see someone equate defecation with samma samadhi and yet quite obviously it is as suitable a time (according to the satipatthana sutta) as any other for samma samadhi to be cultivated.
But the Buddha advocated that one be mindful/clear comphrehending of such a thing, and being mindful requires a degree of concentration.
Concentration arises with every citta. With it is right or wrong depends.
Sure, but it is a matter of stability and strength of concentration which is what is cultivated by sitting practice such as taught by U Ba Khin and Mahasi Sayadaw.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by rowyourboat » Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:06 pm

"As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Samadhi needs to be developed in a specific way.
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by Alex123 » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:00 pm

The Visuddhimagga does say that:
[A. UNDERSTANDING]
1. [436] Now concentration was described under the heading of consciousness in the stanza:

When a wise man, established well in virtue, Develops consciousness and understanding* (Ch. I, §1).

And that has been developed in all its aspects by the bhikkhu who is thus possessed of the more advanced development of concentration that has
acquired with direct-knowledge the benefits [described in Chs. XII and XIII]. But understanding comes next. And that has still to be developed.
VsM XIV,1

Because of the words 'One who is concentrated knows and sees correctly' (A.v,3), its proximate cause is concentration.
-VsM, XIV,7

Now concentration is described under the heading of 'consciousness' in the phrase 'develops consciousness and understanding'
(Ch. I, §1). It should be developed by one who has taken his stand on virtue that has been purified by means of the special qualities of fewness
of wishes, etc., and perfected by observance of the ascetic practices. - VsM III,1
Understanding comes after concentration. The VsM does state that understanding requires concentration and concentration requires virtue (that may have to be perfected by observance of the ascetic practices).

The VsM does go into detail about suitable places and about obstacles to concentration. Judging by heavy requirements it suggests that for most people it is not some momentary and easily to obtain concentration but something that may have to be developed in a retreat setting.
Ten Impediments:
A dwelling, family, and gain, A class, and building too as fifth, And travel, kin, affliction, books, And supernormal powers: ten." - VsM III, 29

As to unfavourable monastery :
"Herein, one that is unfavourable has any one of eighteen faults. These are: largeness, newness, dilapidatedness, a nearby road, a pond,
[edible] leaves, flowers, fruits, famousness, a nearby city, nearby timber trees, nearby arable fields, presence of incompatible persons, a nearby port of
entry, nearness to the border countries, nearness to the frontier of a kingdom, unsuitability, lack of good friends. [119] One with any of these faults is not
favourable. He should not live there. " - VsM - IV,2

So according to Classical Commentarial view, for wisdom one must have sufficient concentration and judging by the suggestions on impediments and unfourable places... It is a bit tougher than some think.


VsM is supposed to be step-by-step guide to purification, and chapter on Wisdom comes after chapters on virtue, ascetic practices and samadhi.
Samadhi in VsM is described as being a bit harder than a momentary state that can easily be achieved.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Virgo
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by Virgo » Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:32 am

Alex123 wrote:T
So according to Classical Commentarial view, for wisdom one must have sufficient concentration and judging by the suggestions on impediments and unfourable places... It is a bit tougher than some think.


VsM is supposed to be step-by-step guide to purification, and chapter on Wisdom comes after chapters on virtue, ascetic practices and samadhi.
Samadhi in VsM is described as being a bit harder than a momentary state that can easily be achieved.
Actually the Commentaries, abhidhamma, and all classical texts make it very clear that satipatthana even to the attainment of the level of nibbana can occur with normal samadhi (the same cetasika that arises with every citta). Nothing special needed but understanding based on the right accumulations in past lives.

The Visuddhimagga, however, does strongly recommend purfiying sila and developing concentration to strong a degree as an additional support to this and also because it is kusala kamma in and of itself, imo.

All the best,
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:06 am

Virgo wrote:
Alex123 wrote:T
So according to Classical Commentarial view, for wisdom one must have sufficient concentration and judging by the suggestions on impediments and unfourable places... It is a bit tougher than some think.


VsM is supposed to be step-by-step guide to purification, and chapter on Wisdom comes after chapters on virtue, ascetic practices and samadhi.
Samadhi in VsM is described as being a bit harder than a momentary state that can easily be achieved.
Actually the Commentaries, abhidhamma, and all classical texts make it very clear that satipatthana even to the attainment of the level of nibbana can occur with normal samadhi (the same cetasika that arises with every citta). Nothing special needed but understanding based on the right accumulations in past lives.
Where in the suttas is this said? So there is nothing I can do to help this process along?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by Virgo » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:12 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:
Alex123 wrote:T
So according to Classical Commentarial view, for wisdom one must have sufficient concentration and judging by the suggestions on impediments and unfourable places... It is a bit tougher than some think.


VsM is supposed to be step-by-step guide to purification, and chapter on Wisdom comes after chapters on virtue, ascetic practices and samadhi.
Samadhi in VsM is described as being a bit harder than a momentary state that can easily be achieved.
Actually the Commentaries, abhidhamma, and all classical texts make it very clear that satipatthana even to the attainment of the level of nibbana can occur with normal samadhi (the same cetasika that arises with every citta). Nothing special needed but understanding based on the right accumulations in past lives.
Where in the suttas is this said? So there is nothing I can do to help this process along?
Develop Right Understanding.

Suttas don't say it explicitly but many attained not praciticing anything, like the girl who bought flowers for the king to set up at funerals. She sold flowers every day and stole from the king. He would give her money for so many bundles and she would only buy half and pocket the rest of the money. She didn't follow any ascetics or meditate. Then she went with her friend to see the Buddha talk and she became a sotapanna during the talk. After that, she refused to steal money from the King anymore and told the Queen what she had done. The Queen converted then.
The Hunger Site

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:21 am

Nice story. So, there is something we can do, there is choice that I can make in my practice: I can develop Right Understanding, which would include Right Mindfulness and Right Samadhi. In other words, by choosing to cultivate mindfulness and concentration I can come to a point of seeing the rise and fall of the aspects of the mind/body process that come into awareness, leading to the direct experience of impermanence, thusly vipassana. And Right Understanding then becomes more than mere conceptualization.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by robertk » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:29 am

Alex123 wrote:The Visuddhimagga does say that:

it suggests that for most people it is not some momentary and easily to obtain concentration but something that may have to be developed in a retreat setting.

.
Please quote where exactly the Visuddhimagga says this .


the Susima sutta the Buddha explained about sukkavipassaka
arhants - those who are liberated without having jhana.
Venerable Bodhi translates the commentary to this sutta:

Saratthappakasini (Atthakatha) :
QUOTE
"
Why is this said? For the purpose
of showing the arising of
knowledge thus even without concentration.
This is meant: "Susima, the path and fruit are not the issue of
concentration (samadhinissanda), nor the advantage brought about by
concentration (samadhi-anisamsa), nor the outcome of concentration
(samadhinipphatti). They are the issue of insight (vipassana), the
advantage brought about by insight, the outcome of insight.
Therefore, whether you understand or not, first comes knowledge of
the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana.
Spk-pt (tika): 'Even without concentration' (vina pi samadhim): even
without
previously established (concentration) that has acquired the
characteristic of serenity (samatha-lakkhanappattam); this is said
referring to one who takes the vehicle of insight
(vipassanayanika)..."
Last edited by robertk on Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by robertk » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:35 am

Alex123 wrote:The Visuddhimagga does say that:

[So according to Classical Commentarial view, for wisdom one must have sufficient concentration and judging by the suggestions on impediments and unfourable places... It is a bit tougher than some think.


.
It has been pointed out again and again - that there are different types of attainers. Very few were jhana labhi .

Also where does it say that ,as you claim, the Vis. is a step by step manual. You realy think one starts at page 1 , follows all the types of sila, then moves on to the Concentartion section and works through the different jhanas one by one on each of the 38 objects. Please do give the reference.

Could the mods please note this is supposed to be Classical forum.

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:40 am

Greetings Robert,
robertk wrote:Could the mods please note this is supposed to be Classical forum.
Either report a post explaining why it's a violation of the forum rules, ignore it, or just respond to it.

Comments like the above are diversionary and disruptive in themselves. See the forum complaints guidelines for further details.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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