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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket: teaching's diverge from Theravada?

Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:56 am
by tiltbillings
robertk wrote:It all depends what you mean by a formal method? If you mean someone sits down and listens to a teacher tell them do this or do that, concentrate on the top of your head for x amount of time, or move your hands slowly up and down, then move your awareness to this or that part of the body , walk slowly or quickly, sit for hours and focus on pain, etc. ...she would not be supportive.
Of course, you can caricature it this way, but there is a great deal more going on than what you are describing. Again, the Burmese mindfulness practices come out of the Visuddhimagga discussion of dry insight. The use of techniques to cultivate concentration and mindfulness are skillful means, not the real practice, which is attending to what is seen, heard, sensed, and cognized with an attentive, concentrated mind. Are you saying she would reject that?

Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket: teaching's diverge from Theravada?

Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:42 am
by robertk
[quote="tiltbillings. The use of techniques to cultivate concentration and mindfulness are skillful means, not the real practice, which is attending to what is seen, heard, sensed, and cognized with an attentive, concentrated mind. Are you saying she would reject that?[/quote]

She would say the real practice is when there is sati and sampajana that knows/experiences/insights what is seen, heard, sensed, and cognized.

Khanika(momentary) samadhi is certainly present at such moments as is [yoniso] manisikara (attention) and of course one can easily have these elements- in fact one cannot stop them arising. But khanika samadhi and yoniso arise with both kusala and akusala moments.

The hard part is having the ones that come with sati-sampajana - and these factors do not arise with every moment.

Focusing and concentring and wishing will not make them arise.

Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket: teaching's diverge from Theravada?

Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:56 am
by robertk
tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:there seem to 3 points you are bringing up:

1. a Matthew kosuta (not sure who he is: is he the person you referred to on teh otehr thread who has 'an informed opinion"?)said that according to Sujin, "Cetana as a cetasika is said to only arise, as with all paramattha dhamma, due to “conditions and accumulations”, a person as anatta cannot will another anatta constituent into being. Kamma as traditionally understood in the Sutta literature is thus negated."

So, Kevin, a follower of Sujin and a claimant of being ariya, says there is no choice: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 560#p56622" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[
Perhaps read this thread where one of Nina van Gorkom's articles on kamma is posted and if you agree/disagree with it tell us.(Nina is a longtime student of Sujin)
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... rkom#p3220" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket: teaching's diverge from Theravada?

Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:19 pm
by tiltbillings
robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: The use of techniques to cultivate concentration and mindfulness are skillful means, not the real practice, which is attending to what is seen, heard, sensed, and cognized with an attentive, concentrated mind. Are you saying she would reject that?
She would say the real practice is when there is sati and sampajana that knows/experiences/insights what is seen, heard, sensed, and cognized.

Khanika(momentary) samadhi is certainly present at such moments as is [yoniso] manisikara (attention) and of course one can easily have these elements- in fact one cannot stop them arising. But khanika samadhi and yoniso arise with both kusala and akusala moments.

The hard part is having the ones that come with sati-sampajana - and these factors do not arise with every moment.

Focusing and concentring and wishing will not make them arise.
So, following the practice outline by U Ba Khin or Mahasi Sayadaw these postive things can be developed.

Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket: teaching's diverge from Theravada?

Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:08 am
by robertk
More about kamma and anatta here:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5195" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket: teaching's diverge from Theravada?

Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:56 pm
by tiltbillings
robertk wrote:More about kamma and anatta here:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5195" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That's nice; however, my comment still holds: So, following the practice outline by U Ba Khin or Mahasi Sayadaw these postive things can be developed.