Celibacy

[Moth]

What are your thoughts on this topic? Is it necessary if not more beneficial? I am at a point in my life where I am considering becoming a monk in which case I would be giving up the opportunity to have a wife and child. I'm curious to hear your opinions on this issue.

[Goedert]

Hello friend.

The "Celebacy" is used to the bhikkhu trainning. It is on the rules of the monks called Vinaya Pitaka.

Doing so, one avoid the contact with the sexual act and avoiding the sensual pleasure.

It envolves many things in the trainning et all. No doubt the celibacy is good for the trainning of a bhikkhu.

By the way. What motivates you to go on ordination?

[Moth]

By the way. What motivates you to go on ordination?

It just seems to be the wisest path, rather than pursuing attachment.

[convivium]

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... ahmacariya" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

i don't know if this will help...
maybe something here.

[BlackBird]

What are your thoughts on this topic?

Too hard for me, at this stage. I admire anyone who can make it a life long commitment

metta
Jack

[Goedert]

By the way. What motivates you to go on ordination?

It just seems to be the wisest path, rather than pursuing attachment.

Very true friend, very true.

The life of a monk is not easy, you have to do with many mundane difficults (food, lack of instruction, etc.), this is part of the programan. Letting them go and acceptting it.

Advice you to choose very carefully the monastery you want to ordain, knowing what method is teached there or Instruct your self before ordination.

Kind regards.

[Jason]

What are your thoughts on this topic? Is it necessary if not more beneficial? I am at a point in my life where I am considering becoming a monk in which case I would be giving up the opportunity to have a wife and child. I'm curious to hear your opinions on this issue.

As far as awakening is concerned, it's really only beneficial in the context of a well-developed meditation practice, or for someone who's in the process of developing one.

The Pali literature basically takes the position that sexual intercourse is an obstruction or impediment (antarayika dhamma) to obtaining awakening. In AN 4.159, for example, Ananda explains to a bhikkhuni, who's apparently sick, that sexual intercourse is to be abandoned in the practice of the holy life. (Incidentally, the background to this story details that the bhikkhuni in question was faking her illness so that Ananda would come to see her. She was very infatuated with him, and when he realized this, he gave her this particular discourse.)

Another example can be found at the beginning of MN 22. Here, the Buddha is portrayed as rebuking a monk for his views regarding sex. While not explicitly stated in the sutta itself, the commentary to this sutta mentions that the wrong view of the offending monk, Arittha, dealt specifically with the monastic training rule prohibiting sexual intercourse.

The note given to this section of the sutta concerning "obstructions" by Nyanaponika Thera explains this in more detail. Simply put, for a monastic who's dedicated fully to the holy life, it's a serious hindrance to their practice. After all, the duty of the noble disciple is to discern the allures and drawbacks of, and escape from, sensuality, physical form and feeling (MN 13). And if you look to the Buddha's teachings in general, there's nothing in them that suggests there's anything skillful in giving in to sensual desires, including those of a sexual nature.

As lay-followers, of course, we're not required to remain celibate; however, it seems to be the general consensus among Theravadin orthodoxy that sex and masturbation do nothing for spiritual awakening. Moreover, Buddhism doesn't encourage the casual fulfillment of sensual desires as much as it encourages their eventual abandonment, which further supports the idea that sex is ultimately an obstruction to awakening.

This is essentially the case made by Ajahn Brahm and Ajahn Nanadhammo in "Buddhist Sexual Ethics - A Rejoinder." While this shouldn't be taken as an absolute rejection of sex as it mainly pertains to monastics who have gone forth, it does strongly suggest that sex is ultimately a hindrance to awakening for those of us that are interested in pursuing the path the very end. Nevertheless, even if this is true, I think my old friend, Kris, (who I wish was still around) made an excellent point in a similar discussion on another forum a few years ago:

• From "Buddhist Sexual Ethics - A Rejoinder":
  

  ”Now, Udàyin, the pleasure and joy that arises dependent on these five cords of sensual pleasure are called sensual pleasures - a filthy pleasure, a coarse pleasure, an ignoble pleasure. I say of this kind of pleasure that it should not be pursued, that it should not be developed, that it should not be cultivated, that it should be feared... (whereas the pleasure of the Four Jhànas). This is called the bliss of renunciation, the bliss of enlightenment. I say of this kind of pleasure that it should be pursued, that it should be developed, that it should be cultivated, that it should not be feared.” (ibid p.557)...
  ...I have stated how sensual pleasures provide little gratification, much suffering, and much despair, and how great is the danger in them.

  but that:
  

  ]The pursuit of self-mortification... is the wrong way. Disengagement from the pursuit of self-mortification... is the right way... The Middle Way discovered by the Tathàgata avoids both these extremes... it leads... to Nibbàna.”

  The accompanying commentary (perhaps unsurprisingly) provides a very “monastic” slant on the above quotes. Rather than issuing a blanket command to “give it up”, as some teachers do, Buddha demonstrated the means by which this attachment will fade of itself - the bliss of Jhana.
  That bliss and renunciation are the same thing, indicates that this is no miserable, cold-shower-style repression, rather something quite different and unique. So how can renunciation of something we enjoy be blissful? It can only be blissful when we see the nature of the agitation of the mind (insight) from within the calm of Jhana (samatha). This is entirely unlike any kind of worldly bliss and is termed a pleasure not-of-the-flesh.
  A blissful process is also utilised in the inner fire teachings of highest yoga tantra but as a means to an end - not an end in itself.
  Just “giving it up” won’t work for most people and could be the first step on the path of self-mortification. It involves denial and what help is that when one dies? The desire, the volition, is still latent within the stream (although repressed). Only when true relinquishment occurs, through meditation, can it be deemed worthwhile and I feel that Buddha’s Middle Way must be interpreted in this way.

[manas]

My attempts at finding a 'middle way' of enjoying sexual pleasure 'moderately' have always ended in failure. In my mind, the whole idea of pleasure is to maximize it, not to stingily give it to myself in little drips. So I have found that I tend towards sexual obsession, trying to squeeze more and more pleasure out of this slowly ageing sack of blood, flesh and bones.

In order to free myself, for the sake of my own welfare (possibly sanity), I am undertaking a period of total abstinence, not just from the act but also from self-pleasuring, and as much as possible I guard my mind against letting lust invade it. As a lay person this is very hard and sometimes EXCRUCIATING work. It can feel like torture. And self-made suffering it is: the harder I hold on to the memories of past pleaure, the more it hurts! So I have to resort to using whatever wisdom I can muster to keep going. This often happens with me in tears at the end of the day. Here is a benefit though: I feel lighter, more peaceful (when I am not undergoing a 'test' of my resolve), and it is easier to practise meditation.

I am trying to hear the Buddha's advice: that the calm, still mind is far more pleasureable than the world of sense-pleausures. I have not yet fully tasted this, but I have had glimpses. These alone have been enough (so far) to keep me interested in as much sensual renunciation as I can manage for now. For myself, the sensory 'loudness' of orgasm, and the subsequent ripples of longing and desire that are imprinted on the mind when one indulges in it, are too destructive to calm in the mind. So others might be able to cultivate this calm while still having orgasm in moderation, but I just can't seem to do this.

The Buddha always prefaces the description of blissful jhanic states with 'quite secluded from sense pleausures, secluded from unwholesome states of mind', so I am kind of inferring that we have to actually trust and let go a little of our clinging to sense pleausure before really pleasureable meditative states can arise. And sex is not such a big deal anyway: even pigs and earthworms have orgasms, in fact pigs' orgasms last for half an hour...so, pigs have better orgams than us, but (to my knowledge) they can't access the Buddha-Dhamma as well as humans can (if any intelligent porcine being is reading this, I apologise and retract this ). When you look at it that way, orgasm loses some of its specialness.

[Moth]

A combination of wisdom and willpower is needed I suppose. I'm trying to avoid all sexual self-indulgence as well. Intercourse is easy to avoid, internet pornography not so much. I'm getting better though, and I definitely notice the benefit. For myself I find it too difficult to give up all together, I feel its better to make the effort towards wisdom, and in that sense as one goes up the other goes down.

[manas]

I feel its better to make the effort towards wisdom, and in that sense as one goes up the other goes down.

Yes, that is my personal experience also. Keep striving with this, it is worth every tear shed and every moment spent standing between the meditation room and the PC room, feeling the lust in the mind and body raging, and 'just knowing' without identifying with it as 'me or mine'. It is just sensation, a burning sensation in the lower body (or in the heart sometimes for me) - and having to again and again (will it ever end, this struggle?) access and use Wisdom in order to NOT indulge that pleasure that leads to much suffering (internet porn). As a single man living alone, I agree that if you can stay off this stuff for good, I bow to you. I'm trying damn hard at present. Like I said, though, it has been very worth it so far, but the price has been heartache and tears, no doubt kamma rightfully returning to me for all those times I did indulge in the past! I wish to encourage you, that it DOES get easier over time (gradually, so I have been told), and don't listen to the doubt that says you can't do it. We do it like learning to walk. At first we walk, then fall, then walk, then fall, but gradually we fall down less and less until it is hardly at all or never. I'm sure the pain will lessen over time too. And thank you for mentioning it, I wasn't sure if I could on this forum!

[Moth]

You could also set up parental controls using Kaspersky Internet Security or whatever AV software you have to block erotic sites and purposefully choose a password you will forget.

[Reductor]

... I wasn't sure if I could on this forum!

On this forum just about anything goes.
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2021" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4411" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sexual topics can be hot around here.

http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&q=+site%3Ad ... e4ac12056e" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Whatever is getting you down in life, I'm sure that it can be fruitfully discussed with the members here.

[manas]

Hi all, I'm posting here cos I am in a hurry and don't know where else to post...I wonder if any other householder experimenting with complete sexual abstinence has found that just when they have begun to taste some higher pleasure in meditation, just when they feel like they have had a GLIMPSE of what it is like to let go of the five-sense world obsession for a little while and experience a relatively still mind (and taste the sweetness of this), suddenly the defilement of lust takes a big swipe at you. Today I'm assailed by strong doubt re the higher aspects of the doctrine (stuff that I should not ponder on at this stage, but mara uses this to get me down often), and now for the first time in over a week sensual desire seems to be CALLING me! Just when I have been feeling like I have made more progress in calming the mind than ever before in this current lifetime.

This might not be the right forum for a sob story like mine. But I hope someone can advise, can a deep darkness stand on the edge of a brightness? Just when I felt some sweetness in letting go, should lust come and assail me like this? Should I press onward, or am I pressing too hard?

This must be why the Buddha encouraged pp to ordain. It is tough having to interact with the opposite sex every day while guarding the door of sight so that one does not grasp at the form with desire. I feel I'm ready to give up on celibacy, though this is probably my defilements working hard to stay alive. I am certainly confused.

(PS: I realize that 'the forms' are human beings. I have compassion and I am not averse. My anger is with myself alone; that sex desire came to so dominate me, that I have to now take such an extreme counter-measure to truly free myself. Lust is the enemy; women are not. )

[lojong1]

What are your thoughts on this topic? Is it necessary if not more beneficial? I am at a point in my life where I am considering becoming a monk in which case I would be giving up the opportunity to have a wife and child. I'm curious to hear your opinions on this issue.

How about temporary ordination. Certainly no new wife or child while a monk, but if after a year your faith has not grown, drop the robes and get laid, yes?

[Reductor]

...just when they feel like they have had a GLIMPSE of what it is like to let go of the five-sense world obsession for a little while and experience a relatively still mind (and taste the sweetness of this), suddenly the defilement of lust takes a big swipe at you.

That happens manasikara, especially if lust is a major character feature for that person (as it is for me).

So don't be too hard on yourself, as oscillation between progress and decline is the norm. I always look at it as one step back, two forward. If you just say 'ITS NOT WORKING' when you take that step back, you'll end up taking a lot more back rather than the next two forward. Get me?

And yes, that is a benefit of ordination verses householder life, and I too experiencing that vexation at times, but being ordained is not a sure fire fix all. I mean, you're memory is retained, and that can be a serious bitch even when you're alone.

So, take a deep breath and stay the course of abstinence for however long you've decided on. Do you're best. Perhaps you're defilements will make you beat retreat for a moment, but that's not a defeat if you use this lapse to resupply for the offensive. So to speak.