Bhante G vs. Bhante G

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nathan
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Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Post by nathan »

There is a new article by Ven. Gunaratana about Jhana and Vipassana. "Should We Come Out of Jhana to Practice Vipassana?"

It seems the Venerable has a new way of looking at jhana, which he now writes is entirely compatible with vipassana. As he seems to be entirely at odds in this article with what he has previously written about Jhana in two longer works on the same subject I thought it probably made the most sense to post a note about it here where people can quote passages from all three documents. May the noblest Bhante G. win.

The Venerables two previous works, also available as pdfs online, are:

The Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation

A Critical Analysis of the Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation


The new article:

http://www.bhavanasociety.org/resource/ ... vipassana/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
PeterB
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Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Post by PeterB »

"May the noblest Bhante G win "... :smile:
I havent yet read the article but thanks for the smile..
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Ben
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Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Post by Ben »

Thank you Nathan.
I look forward to reading Bhante's article (and previous works) with great interest!
metta

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Kenshou
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Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Post by Kenshou »

It seems the Venerable has a new way of looking at jhana,
I could be mistaken, but it seemed to me that in the older essay, he is describing the traditional Theravadin view, and in the more recent one he is giving his personal understanding. Not necessarily any conflict here.
husmonk
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Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Post by husmonk »

One point I noticed is the following. In the older document, he recites the "common" way of practicing insight after getting out of a jhana (as a person like Ajahn Brahm would say). In the new one, he is emphatic about practicing insight "within" (i.e., not getting out of) a jhana. I would like to know more about the coexistence of deep concentration and mindfulness (more than Shankman, Brahm, Gunaratana, and Thanissaro have written). Any pointers? Thank you.
Moggalana
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Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Post by Moggalana »

husmonk wrote:One point I noticed is the following. In the older document, he recites the "common" way of practicing insight after getting out of a jhana (as a person like Ajahn Brahm would say). In the new one, he is emphatic about practicing insight "within" (i.e., not getting out of) a jhana. I would like to know more about the coexistence of deep concentration and mindfulness (more than Shankman, Brahm, Gunaratana, and Thanissaro have written). Any pointers? Thank you.
Have you read this thread: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas?
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rowyourboat
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Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Post by rowyourboat »

I dont see a contradication - only a development in Bhanthe's meditative abilities: It is easier to come out of jhana and practice vipassana. Now he seems to be able to practice it within jhana as well; and he is keen to share it with the world - we don't need to attack that do we?

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Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Post by Sanghamitta »

rowyourboat wrote:I dont see a contradication - only a development in Bhanthe's meditative abilities: It is easier to come out of jhana and practice vipassana. Now he seems to be able to practice it within jhana as well; and he is keen to share it with the world - we don't need to attack that do we?

with metta

Matheesha
I think that's a good point. We are not after all dealing with revelations carved in stone. Within the practice of a group or individual there will be evolution and integration. Which could look like contradiction, but is in fact evidence of a wider or deeper view.
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husmonk
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Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Post by husmonk »

Moggalana wrote:
husmonk wrote:One point I noticed is the following. In the older document, he recites the "common" way of practicing insight after getting out of a jhana (as a person like Ajahn Brahm would say). In the new one, he is emphatic about practicing insight "within" (i.e., not getting out of) a jhana. I would like to know more about the coexistence of deep concentration and mindfulness (more than Shankman, Brahm, Gunaratana, and Thanissaro have written). Any pointers? Thank you.
Have you read this thread: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas?
Thank you. I just started to read the thread and see some relevant posts. It will take some time to go through it....
Sylvester
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Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Post by Sylvester »

husmonk wrote:One point I noticed is the following. In the older document, he recites the "common" way of practicing insight after getting out of a jhana (as a person like Ajahn Brahm would say). In the new one, he is emphatic about practicing insight "within" (i.e., not getting out of) a jhana. I would like to know more about the coexistence of deep concentration and mindfulness (more than Shankman, Brahm, Gunaratana, and Thanissaro have written). Any pointers? Thank you.
Hi, it's been posted before, but here's a current analysis of the 2 models of Jhana by Piya Tan -

http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... .-piya.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He discusses Bhante G's current views in depth.

If you can access Ven Analayo's online essays, check out his entries on Samadhi and Vitakka. Ven Analayo's discussion of the term Vitakka when it is part of the "vitakka-vicara" compound will clarify a lot of the common misunderstandings regarding what vitakka-vicara does in 1st Jhana. It's directly pertinent to the issue of whether satipatthana is possible within Jhanas.
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Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Post by Nyana »

Sylvester wrote:Hi, it's been posted before, but here's a current analysis of the 2 models of Jhana by Piya Tan
Piya Tan's survey of MN 111 fails to take into account the wording of the entire sutta. MN 111 informs us that all the mental factors of the first jhāna (the dhamma-s of vitakka, vicāra, pīti, sukha, cittekaggatā, phassa, vedanā, saññā, cetanā, vīriya, sati, manasikāra, etc.) are working together in complete harmony. Moreover each can be individuated and clearly seen via vipassanā as it persists. The same is true when correctly engaging in the remaining three jhāna-s and first three formless attainments.

MN 111 informs us that the two exceptions to this are the meditative attainment of the sphere of neither-apperception-nor-nonapperception and the attainment of the cessation of apperception and feeling. In both of these cases one must emerge from that attainment before applying insight to the past mental factors which were present therein. This is because apperception (saññā) isn't sufficiently functional while abiding in either of these two attainments for vipassanā to occur.

Moreover, not only does MN 111 describe vipassanā occurring within jhāna, so does the earliest strata of abhidhamma texts. For example, the Dhammasaṅgaṇī states that vipassanā occurs at the time of abiding in jhāna. And the Paṭisambhidāmagga Ānāpānassatikathā states that the coupling of samatha and vipassanā while one is correctly abiding in jhāna is the proper training of heightened mind (adhicittasikkhā).

Sylvester wrote:If you can access Ven Analayo's online essays, check out his entries on Samadhi and Vitakka. Ven Analayo's discussion of the term Vitakka when it is part of the "vitakka-vicara" compound will clarify a lot of the common misunderstandings regarding what vitakka-vicara does in 1st Jhana. It's directly pertinent to the issue of whether satipatthana is possible within Jhanas.
The earliest detailed word commentary on the standard jhāna formula is found in Peṭakopadesa 7.72. It clearly defines vitakka and vicāra:
  • Here, for fulfilling non-passion he thinks the thought of renunciation. Here, for fulfilling non-aggression he thinks the thought of non-aversion. Here, for fulfilling non-delusion he thinks the thought of harmlessness.

    Here, for fulfilling non-passion he is secluded from sensual pleasures. Here, for fulfilling non-aggression and fulfilling non-delusion he is secluded from unskillful phenomena. And so he enters and remains in the first jhāna, which includes directed thought and evaluation, as well as joy and pleasure born of seclusion.

    Directed thought: There are three kinds of directed thought, namely the thought of renunciation, the thought of non-aversion, and the thought of harmlessness.

    Here, directed thought is the first instance while evaluation is the evaluation of what is thereby received. Just as when a man sees someone approaching in the distance he does not yet know whether it is a woman or a man, but when he has received [the apperception] that “it is a woman” or “it is a man” or that “it is of such color” or that “it is one of such shape,” then when he has thought this he further scrutinizes, “How then, is he ethical or unethical, rich or poor?” This is examination. With directed thought he fixes. With examination he moves about and turns over [what has been thought].

    And just as a winged bird first accumulates [speed] and then accumulates no more [speed when gliding], so too, directed thought is like the accumulation, and evaluation is like the outstretched wings which keeps preserving the directed thought and evaluation....

    Directed thought is like a text-reciter who does his recitation silently. Evaluation is like him simply contemplating it.
This word commentary accords with MN 78 Samaṇamuṇḍika Sutta, which tells us that skillful resolves (kusalā saṅkappā) consisting of the resolve of renunciation (nekkhamma- saṅkappa), the resolve of non-aversion (abyāpādasaṅkappa), and the resolve of harmlessness (avihiṃsāsaṅkappa) don’t cease until the second jhāna. This provides some context as to the meaning and significance of directed thought and evaluation in the standard jhāna formula:
  • And what are skillful resolves? Being resolved on renunciation, on non-aversion, on harmlessness. These are called skillful resolves. What is the cause of skillful resolves? Their cause, too, has been stated, and they are said to be apperception-caused. Which apperception? — for apperception has many modes and permutations. Any renunciation-apperception, non-aversion-apperception or harmlessness-apperception: That is the cause of skillful resolves.

    Now where do skillful resolves cease without trace? Their stopping, too, has been stated: There is the case where a monk, with the stilling of directed thought and evaluation, enters and remains in the second jhāna, which has internal serene-clarity and unification of mind free from thought and evaluation, and has joy and pleasure born of concentration. This is where skillful resolves cease without trace.
All the best,

Geoff
Sylvester
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Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Post by Sylvester »

Thanks Geoff.

Could you share your thoughts pls as to why the particular verb tenses used in MN 111 necessitate contemporaneity of the 2 verbs?

I would suggest that the Abhidhammic notion of insight within Jhana is an outcome of its resort to the lokuttara jhana concept.

The Petakopadesa treatment of vitakka and vicara does not tally with how MN 117 treats the synonyms for vitakka-vicara.

With metta
Nyana
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Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Post by Nyana »

Sylvester wrote:I would suggest that the Abhidhammic notion of insight within Jhana is an outcome of its resort to the lokuttara jhana concept.
The Dhammasaṅgaṇī states that vipassanā is present in rūpāvacarajjhāna as well as lokuttarajjhāna. Moreover, the Sarvāstivāda *Mahāvibhāṣā (Apidamo dapiposha lun), the Abhidharmakośabhāṣya, the *Mahāprajñāpāramitopadeśa (Dazhi du lun), the *Prakaraṇāryavācaśāstra (Xianyang shengjiao lun), and the Yogācārabhūmiśāstra all maintain that vipassanā should be developed within jhāna, just like the Pāḷi Abhidhammapiṭaka.
Sylvester wrote:The Petakopadesa treatment of vitakka and vicara does not tally with how MN 117 treats the synonyms for vitakka-vicara.
Of course it does. Pls read the relevant section carefully. It employs the same mundane/supramundane analysis found in the Abhidhammapiṭaka.
Sylvester wrote:Could you share your thoughts pls as to why the particular verb tenses used in MN 111 necessitate contemporaneity of the 2 verbs?
Reading the entire sutta in context we find that it explicitly states that one must emerge from the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception in order to employ insight regarding that attainment:
  • Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.'
This qualification is neither stated nor implied with regard to the seven previous perception attainments (i.e. the four jhānas and the first three formless attainments). Ven. Ṭhānissaro comments on this section of the sutta as follows:
  • Notice that, with each of the previous levels of attainment, Sariputta was able to ferret out the various mental qualities arising there while he was still in the attainment. With this attainment and the following one, however, he was not able to analyze the mental qualities present and absent there until after he had left the attainment. The difference here is related to the point made in AN IX.36 that all the attainments up through the dimension of nothingness are "perception-attainments." And that, "As far as the perception-attainments go, that is as far as gnosis-penetration goes. As for these two dimensions — the attainment of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception & the attainment of the cessation of feeling & perception — I tell you that they are to be rightly explained by those monks who are meditators, skilled in attaining, skilled in attaining & emerging, who have attained & emerged in dependence on them."
This understanding also accords with the pan-Buddhist abhidharma interpretation that vipassanā can and should function in all seven perception attainments, but cannot function in the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception or the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling.

All the best,

Geoff
Sylvester
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Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Post by Sylvester »

Thank you Geoff.

Could you perhaps furnish the Dhammasangani passage which mentions vipassana within lokiya jhana?

Pls elaborate on the Petakopadesa and why you believe it is consistent with MN 117.

Let me mull over Ven Thanissaro's argument. I need to see if I still have a copy of Ven Dhammanando's critique of Ven Thanissaro's "gnosis penetration" from e-Sangha.
Nyana
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Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Post by Nyana »

Sylvester wrote:Could you perhaps furnish the Dhammasangani passage which mentions vipassana within lokiya jhana?
We have to fill in the appropriate ellipses (here provided by U Kyaw Khine). Dhammasaṅgaṇī Cittuppādakaṇḍa (CSCD edition):
  • Rūpāvacarakusala

    Catukkanayo

    160. Katame dhammā kusalā? Yasmiṃ samaye rūpūpapattiyā maggaṃ bhāveti vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ [paṭhamajjhānaṃ (sī.)] upasampajja viharati pathavīkasiṇaṃ, tasmiṃ samaye phasso hoti … pe [complete this ellipse with the remainder of paragraph 1] … avikkhepo hoti … pe [complete this ellipse with the remainder of paragraphs 2 to 145] … ime dhammā kusalā.
The second ellipse includes paragraph 55:
  • 55. Katamā tasmiṃ samaye vipassanā hoti? Yā tasmiṃ samaye paññā pajānanā vicayo pavicayo dhammavicayo sallakkhaṇā upalakkhaṇā paccupalakkhaṇā paṇḍiccaṃ kosallaṃ nepuññaṃ vebhabyā cintā upaparikkhā bhūrī medhā pariṇāyikā vipassanā sampajaññaṃ patodo paññā paññindriyaṃ paññābalaṃ paññāsatthaṃ paññāpāsādo paññāāloko paññāobhāso paññāpajjoto paññāratanaṃ amoho dhammavicayo sammādiṭṭhi – ayaṃ tasmiṃ samaye vipassanā hoti.
Sylvester wrote:Pls elaborate on the Petakopadesa and why you believe it is consistent with MN 117.
MN 117:
  • And what is the right resolve that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? Being resolved on renunciation, on freedom from ill will, on harmlessness. This is the right resolve that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions.
This passage includes what is classified as rūpāvacarajjhāna in the Abhidhammapiṭaka. A number of academics and translators have noted that MN 117 has ābhidhammika type additions not found in the Āgama version of this discourse.

However, the Peṭakopadesa is actually closer to the treatment of the four jhānas found throughout the suttas than what is found in MN 117 or the Pāḷi Abhidhammapiṭaka.

Moreover, the Peṭakopadesa word commentary on the jhāna factors of all four jhānas is in close agreement with not only the Pāḷi suttas, but also the main non-Pāḷi Abhidharma texts, i.e. the Sarvāstivāda *Mahāvibhāṣā (Apidamo dapiposha lun), the Abhidharmakośabhāṣya, the *Mahāprajñāpāramitopadeśa (Dazhi du lun), the *Prakaraṇāryavācaśāstra (Xianyang shengjiao lun), and the Yogācārabhūmiśāstra. Thus, parts of the Peṭakopadesa may preserve very early, possibly even pre-sectarian commentarial material.

All the best,

Geoff
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