MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IN BUDDHIST SCRIPTURES?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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oceanmen
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Re: MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IN BUDDHIST SCRIPTURES?

Post by oceanmen » Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:13 am

That is so problematic on so many levels. True meaning: one person's true meaning is an other's heresy. This is especially true among the theistic religions of the Book..
i agree, hence it is important to your own investigation. A few centuries ago if i wold say the world is round not flat the whole european continent would not agree with me...!! as for the theistic religions of the book, i think it has more to do with the attitude of people and their perception of the content of the book....

There is enough good, current scholarship that confutes the claim of an unchanged, unaltered unedited Koran.
once again i stick to the advice of Buddha not to belief anything till personally investigated (even if it was said by "enough good, current scholarship" )

As for having to read it in Arabic, why would an all loving, all knowing, all powerful god be so limiting in the truth it claims to wants is supposed creation to know, that requires that it be known only in such a limiting, limited way?
the koran clearly speaks of enlightened ones that were mentioned and enlightened ones that are not mentioned

وَرُسُلًا قَدْ قَصَصْنَاهُمْ عَلَيْكَ مِن قَبْلُ وَرُسُلًا لَّمْ نَقْصُصْهُمْ عَلَيْكَ ۚ وَكَلَّمَ اللَّهُ مُوسَىٰ تَكْلِيمًا
Of some apostles We have already told thee the story; of others We have not;- and to Moses God spoke direct;-
An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #164

these enlightened ones spoke many language, not only arabic, but many many other languages, and it is clearly mentioned that the best amongst them is not the muslim or jew, not the christian or hindu, not the buddhist or daoist but the one who is honest and righteous and seeks the truth with no fanatism (as in sticking to his tradition and rejecting others)


يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَائِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوا ۚ إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ اللَّهِ أَتْقَاكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ
O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most honest/righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).
Al-Hujraat, Chapter #49, Verse #13
A god like that is not a god I'd would want to know
me neither, but what makes your perception about those 3 letters like that?
society? personal experience? research? and how far did you research go?

and is there not a possibility that the concept of non-duality in Buddhism is the same concept of Oneness in belief systems?
and is it not possible that the idea of non-duality similar to the idea of believing in a superior power, serves to crush the ego in both cases?
its when we get married to that idea when we get fanatic

in Koran: Your God is what occupies your Mind the most....

Sadly this is not how most muslims and non-muslims see it
and instead they give you lip service about an old man with a long beard on a cloud
or someone who was crucified or someone who reached enlightenment under a tree or in a cave

their attachment to those people is not much different to my neighbours attachment to his favorite football team (fanatism)

..they are all humans who lived, and died...and we have the right to compete with them on the path to liberation,
the path of setting the mind free from all unskillful qualities, the path of truth and light, the path to non-duality and Oneness….

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oceanmen
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Re: MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IN BUDDHIST SCRIPTURES?

Post by oceanmen » Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:20 am

tiltbillings wrote:
cooran wrote:Hello tilt,

I think what was meant is that, just like the Pali scriptures, it is better to obtain the skills to read in the original language rather than a translation - if what you want is complete accuracy unflavoured by the mind of the translator.
It is a bit more than that with the claims made about the Koran by Islam and the need to read it in Arabic. But whether one reads it in Arabic, especially as a second language and centuries away from the original time of its compilation, there is always going to "flavoring" of what is read. And even for a native speaker, reading the Koran in Arabic is no guarantee that one is going to get at how the language was used and what was meant without a considerable historical apparatus annotating it virtually word by word.

i totally agree with you tilt, but my question is, are our claims enough for you to stop you from learning Arabic and trying it yourself?
and if it is, then my question is: is it ok for others to learn arabic and read it to see and experience by themselves?
is that not how truth seekers search in every nation, culture and tradition?

once again, each has his own path to reach non-duality but there is no reason to criticize someone else s path especial when we never tried it or when we misunderstood it or when it just didn't work for us....

:namaste:

Kenshou
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Re: MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IN BUDDHIST SCRIPTURES?

Post by Kenshou » Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:24 am

and is there not a possibility that the concept of non-duality in Buddhism is the same concept of Oneness in belief systems?
Eh? As far as I know Buddhism is non-dual as much as is it is non-monistic, but rather codependent-origination-istic, to coin an awkward term. Which is certainly different than the monism or monotheism of Abrahamic religions.

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tiltbillings
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Re: MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IN BUDDHIST SCRIPTURES?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:25 am

oceanmen wrote:
and is there not a possibility that the concept of non-duality in Buddhism is the same concept of Oneness in belief systems?
Given that the Buddha did not teach non-duality, the question is meaningless. As for Oneness in belief systems, that is the sort of things Baha'is like to say, but it carries not water, no sand and air passes through it.
and is it not possible that the idea of non-duality similar to the idea of believing in a superior power, serves to crush the ego in both cases?
Non-duality and believing in a higher power is a way for the ego to redefine itself. It is not the Buddha's teachings.
..they are all humans who lived, and died...and we have the right to compete with them on the path to liberation,
the path of setting the mind free from all unskillful qualities, the path of truth and light, the path to non-duality and Oneness….
Oneness. Are you a Baha'i?

As for the Koran, I understand the structure it has set up for itself (the structure Muhammad set up) but there is no reason to assume it is anything other than that.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IN BUDDHIST SCRIPTURES?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:29 am

oceanmen wrote:

i totally agree with you tilt, but my question is, are our claims enough for you to stop you from learning Arabic and trying it yourself?
and if it is, then my question is: is it ok for others to learn arabic and read it to see and experience by themselves?
is that not how truth seekers search in every nation, culture and tradition?
There are enough carefully done translations out there that Arabic is not needed to get what the Koran teaches. The needing to read Arabic thing is just like the Lotus Sutra claims about itself.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Kim OHara
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Re: MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IN BUDDHIST SCRIPTURES?

Post by Kim OHara » Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:35 am

I came back to reply to Tilt's question about apologies but the discussion has moved on far beyond that, so I'll do something more appropriate and make a request to those who are arguing the merits of Islam vs Buddhism: please re-read the last ten (or so) posts, mentally swapping Mohammed/Islam/Arabic for Buddha/Buddhism/Pali and vice versa, and ponder the result before posting again.
:namaste:
Kim

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tiltbillings
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Re: MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IN BUDDHIST SCRIPTURES?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:43 am

Kim O'Hara wrote:I came back to reply to Tilt's question about apologies but the discussion has moved on far beyond that, so I'll do something more appropriate and make a request to those who are arguing the merits of Islam vs Buddhism: please re-read the last ten (or so) posts, mentally swapping Mohammed/Islam/Arabic for Buddha/Buddhism/Pali and vice versa, and ponder the result before posting again.
:namaste:
Kim
This religion vs that religion; that can be a bit fun, if not taken too seriously, but when one bumps up against a claim, as we see above coming out of a religion, presented as if it were objective truth, that does expose the problems with trying to talk with others from differing religions.

Rather that saying one must read the Koran in Arabic to understand; it would be far better to say: "It is what Muslims believe that to truly understand the Koran. . . .
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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oceanmen
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Re: MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IN BUDDHIST SCRIPTURES?

Post by oceanmen » Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:46 am

Kim O'Hara wrote:I came back to reply to Tilt's question about apologies but the discussion has moved on far beyond that, so I'll do something more appropriate and make a request to those who are arguing the merits of Islam vs Buddhism: please re-read the last ten (or so) posts, mentally swapping Mohammed/Islam/Arabic for Buddha/Buddhism/Pali and vice versa, and ponder the result before posting again.
:namaste:
Kim

thank you

@titl: i m not Baha'i - born Muslim and ordained Buddhist (which does not make me less Muslim/Buddhist)

our greatest enemy is our Ego

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tiltbillings
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Re: MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IN BUDDHIST SCRIPTURES?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:49 am

oceanmen wrote:
Kim O'Hara wrote:I came back to reply to Tilt's question about apologies but the discussion has moved on far beyond that, so I'll do something more appropriate and make a request to those who are arguing the merits of Islam vs Buddhism: please re-read the last ten (or so) posts, mentally swapping Mohammed/Islam/Arabic for Buddha/Buddhism/Pali and vice versa, and ponder the result before posting again.
:namaste:
Kim

thank you

@titl: i m not Baha'i - born Muslim and ordained Buddhist (which does not make me less Muslim/Buddhist)
Ordained? You are a monk?
our greatest enemy is our Ego
Not really. It is taking the ego too seriously that is the problem.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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oceanmen
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Re: MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IN BUDDHIST SCRIPTURES?

Post by oceanmen » Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:52 am

not a monk....i wish!!

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tiltbillings
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Re: MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IN BUDDHIST SCRIPTURES?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:52 am

oceanmen wrote:not a monk....i wish!!
Then why the word "ordained?"
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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oceanmen
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Re: MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IN BUDDHIST SCRIPTURES?

Post by oceanmen » Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:53 am

tiltbillings wrote:
oceanmen wrote:
Kim O'Hara wrote:I came back to reply to Tilt's question about apologies but the discussion has moved on far beyond that, so I'll do something more appropriate and make a request to those who are arguing the merits of Islam vs Buddhism: please re-read the last ten (or so) posts, mentally swapping Mohammed/Islam/Arabic for Buddha/Buddhism/Pali and vice versa, and ponder the result before posting again.
:namaste:
Kim

thank you

@titl: i m not Baha'i - born Muslim and ordained Buddhist (which does not make me less Muslim/Buddhist)
Ordained? You are a monk?
our greatest enemy is our Ego
Not really. It is taking the ego too seriously that is the problem.

if you dont take the Ego too seriously does that mean you take humility too lightly?
Last edited by oceanmen on Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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oceanmen
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Re: MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IN BUDDHIST SCRIPTURES?

Post by oceanmen » Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:54 am

tiltbillings wrote:
oceanmen wrote:not a monk....i wish!!
Then why the word "ordained?"

.....i thought its applicable for non monks as well....

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tiltbillings
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Re: MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IN BUDDHIST SCRIPTURES?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:55 am

oceanmen wrote:

if you take the Ego too seriously does that mean you take humility too lightly?
Humility can be quite self-deceptive, just as can be sincerity.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IN BUDDHIST SCRIPTURES?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:57 am

oceanmen wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
oceanmen wrote:not a monk....i wish!!
Then why the word "ordained?"

.....i thought its applicable for non monks as well....
Not really. Generally ordained suggest becoming a monk. Going for refuge (most commonly mistranslated as taking refuge) is what is used for laity.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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