Critique of "jhana among Western converts"

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:54 am

KevinSolway wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
KevinSolway wrote:By definition a Buddha is a person who has escaped samsara. "Ageing and death", according to rebirth doctrine, is part of samsara.
Let us see your source for this definition.


The word "Buddha" means "awakened". Some say "enlightened".

It means awakened from the darkness of ignorance.

Ignorance means samsara - the cycle of attachment and pain.

Ageing and death is the twelfth nidana.

These are very basic Buddhist definitions. I don't know why you're asking about them. You should know these.
Let us see an actual text that supports your claim that the Buddha did not get old and die.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

      >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
      -- Proverbs 26:12

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Spiny Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:04 pm

KevinSolway wrote:Buddhas are not supposed to experience ageing and death, since they have escaped samsara.


Buddhahood- enlightenment - means the cessation of lust, hatred and delusion, not the cessation of ageing and death - see here for example: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html

Clearly a Buddha is still subject to ageing and death. Escape from samsara, the round of rebirth, occurs at pari-Nibbana.
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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DAWN
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby DAWN » Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:50 pm

I think kamma take all rebirth ways at the same moment, litteral and logical, both are true.

Also we can not say that the next life would be "ME", because "ME" is the focus point of this very life experiance. This "ME" will die with this body. Future body will have different experiance, so he will have different conditioning, will have different personality. Different from me.

But it's true, only until i dont remember past-existances -experiance, when i remember this experiance, it become me, cause i'am awere of this experiance. Actualy remembering existances is just an another experiance, and like all experiance have conditioning effect on "me".

But until we dont remember, it can not be me. It's a kamma vawe with relay surfing :toast: Team building :group:

There is no nouns, there is verbs.
There is no "me", there is kamma.

PS no kamma - no problemo :twothumbsup:
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

KevinSolway
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby KevinSolway » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:12 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Let us see an actual text that supports your claim that the Buddha did not get old and die.


He did get old and die. I've said that probably at least six times by now.

I've never said that he did not get old and die, so I don't know where you're getting that from.

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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:17 pm

KevinSolway wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Let us see an actual text that supports your claim that the Buddha did not get old and die.


He did get old and die. I've said that probably at least six times by now.

I've never said that he did not get old and die, so I don't know where you're getting that from.
Then show us a text that states that states: "Buddhas are not supposed to experience ageing and death, since they have escaped samsara."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

      >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
      -- Proverbs 26:12

KevinSolway
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby KevinSolway » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:19 pm

porpoise wrote:Escape from samsara, the round of rebirth, occurs at pari-Nibbana.


That's exactly what I mean by "contortions".

A Buddha escapes samsara the moment he escapes the cycle of ignorance. This has nothing to do with physical life or death.

If you want to argue otherwise then you need to provide reasons and a reasoned argument.

Repeating logical fallacies, such as the appeal to the authority of some words someone has written, and someone elses interpretation of those words, is not reasons, and is not reasoned argument.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby KevinSolway » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:24 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Then show us a text that states that states: "Buddhas are not supposed to experience ageing and death, since they have escaped samsara."


I'm not going to treat you like a baby.

Samsara is the cycle of birth and death.

Buddhas escape samsara. In the language of the rebirth doctrine Buddhas are said to go beyond life and death.

These are really basic things you can look up for yourself.

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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:24 pm

KevinSolway wrote:
porpoise wrote:Escape from samsara, the round of rebirth, occurs at pari-Nibbana.


That's exactly what I mean by "contortions".
The only contortion going here is yours.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

      >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
      -- Proverbs 26:12

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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:26 pm

KevinSolway wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Then show us a text that states that states: "Buddhas are not supposed to experience ageing and death, since they have escaped samsara."


I'm not going to treat you like a baby.

Samsara is the cycle of birth and death.

Buddhas escape samsara. In the language of the rebirth doctrine Buddhas are said to go beyond life and death.

These are really basic things you can look up for yourself.
It other words, you cannot back up your claim that what you are saying is the teaching of the suttas. You are simply, as we can see, making up stuff.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

      >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
      -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby beeblebrox » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:37 pm

KevinSolway wrote:Samsara is the cycle of birth and death.

Buddhas escape samsara. In the language of the rebirth doctrine Buddhas are said to go beyond life and death.


I think it might be more accurate to say that the Buddha saw through the cycle of birth and death, and wasn't tying down any identity to that anymore... he didn't go "beyond" it, because to do so I think that would be what he called, "going beyond the range."

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby KevinSolway » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:37 pm

tiltbillings wrote:You cannot back up your claim that what you are saying is the teaching of the suttas.


I've already explained that quoting from suttas is completely pointless for a number of reasons:

1. It commits the logical fallacy of appeal to authority, which goes against the Buddhadhamma.

and

2. Words in the suttas are interpreted in different ways by different people. As with all religious scriptures, they can be interpreted to mean anything you want, and they are usually interpreted in the worst possible way - especially by the "priests" of any religion - because human beings are incredibly foolish.


The only thing that matters is the Buddhadhamma, and what is in accordance with the Buddhadhamma.

The only way you can arrive at the Buddhadhamma is through reasoning. That's why "human birth" is required.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby KevinSolway » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:43 pm

beeblebrox wrote:I think it might be more accurate to say that the Buddha saw through the cycle of birth and death, and wasn't tying down any identity to that anymore... he didn't go "beyond" it


If the Buddha didn't go beyond ignorance (samsara, described as the cycle of birth and death), by first recognizing it, and then dropping it, and no longer producing it, then he wasn't a Buddha. This is because a Buddha, by definition, is a person who escapes, or "goes beyond" samsara.

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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:00 pm

KevinSolway wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:You cannot back up your claim that what you are saying is the teaching of the suttas.


I've already explained that quoting from suttas is completely pointless for a number of reasons:

1. It commits the logical fallacy of appeal to authority, which goes against the Buddhadhamma.
This without a doubt is the least intelligent thing I have heard in sometime. The suttas are the basis -- the touchstone -- for what we know of the Buddha-Dhamma. There is a reason why the monastics order took great pains to preserve these texts.

2. Words in the suttas are interpreted in different ways by different people. As with all religious scriptures, they can be interpreted to mean anything you want, and they are usually interpreted in the worst possible way - especially by the "priests" of any religion - because human beings are incredibly foolish.
And you are not foolish? Are you awakened? You and Quinn used to claim, if I recall correctly, to be awakened and to be geniuses. Interesting, if there were no suttas at all, you have no basis for your claim about the Buddha and samsara.

The only thing that matters is the Buddhadhamma, and what is in accordance with the Buddhadhamma.

The only way you can arrive at the Buddhadhamma is through reasoning. That's why "human birth" is required.
The requirement of "human birth" is something found in the suttas. You cannot even be logically consistent here, but what we see is your attempting to interpret the Buddha-Dhamma to fit your predilections. Human reasoning -- at its best -- is open-ended, open to what a careful investigation would show. There is none of that in what you are presenting here. You are simply making assertions without any support for them other than it is what you believe and you are presenting THAT as reasoning, which, of course, it is not.

So, since you cannot back up you statements with the suttas, the only conclusion is that you are simply making up stuff. And the questionis: why waste time trying respond to that?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

      >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
      -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby beeblebrox » Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:01 pm

KevinSolway wrote:If the Buddha didn't go beyond ignorance (samsara, described as the cycle of birth and death), by first recognizing it, and then dropping it, and no longer producing it, then he wasn't a Buddha. This is because a Buddha, by definition, is a person who escapes, or "goes beyond" samsara.


Tathagata means "thus gone," or "thus come"... it doesn't mean, "goes beyond."

Here is a quote from a sutta that might be relevant:

SN 44.2

"Anuradha, what do you think: Do you regard the Tathagata as form-feeling-perception-fabrications-consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"And so, Anuradha — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'Friends, the Tathagata — the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment — being described, is described otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death'?"

"No, lord."

"Very good, Anuradha. Very good. Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress."

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby KevinSolway » Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:40 pm

tiltbillings wrote:The suttas are the basis -- the touchstone -- for what we know of the Buddha-Dhamma.


You are only speaking for yourself. You don't speak for me.


. . . samsara.


I've already explained that I have direct knowledge of the nature of samsara and rebirth. I shouldn't have to say it more than once.


The requirement of "human birth" is something found in the suttas.


No, it's something found by direct knowledge.


you're attempting to interpret the Buddha-Dhamma to fit your predilections.


No, that's what you're doing. There you go making your pointless statements again. Try making a rational argument and we might be able to get somewhere.


Without any support for them other than it is what you believe


I've given you solid reasons for what I've said. It's not my problem if you can't understand them.

As an example of your inability to read, I said about six times, very clearly indeed, that the Buddha experienced physical ageing and death. That fact was essential to my argument. You interpreted those words of mine to be saying that the Buddha didn't experience ageing and death at all. This is proof that you are a very poor reader, and unable to understand reasoned arguments.


So, since you cannot back up you statements with the suttas


The Buddha did not back up his statements with suttas. This is because he was a living example of the Buddhadhamma.

He was an example, and a pattern that we should follow.


the only conclusion is that you are simply making up stuff.


So, according to your reasoning, since the Buddha didn't support his statements with reference to suttas, the only conclusion is that he was making stuff up.

KevinSolway
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby KevinSolway » Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:53 pm

beeblebrox wrote:Tathagata means "thus gone," or "thus come"... it doesn't mean, "goes beyond."


It doesn't matter what words you use. If a person doesn't escape samsara, if they don't cease the production of false ideations, ignorance, called "samsara", also called "the cycle of birth and death", then they are not a Buddha.

Physical ageing and death is not something Buddhas can avoid.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby beeblebrox » Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:56 pm

KevinSolway wrote:The Buddha did not back up his statements with suttas. This is because he was a living example of the Buddhadhamma.

He was an example, and a pattern that we should follow.


That sounds good... where should we find this example?

:anjali:

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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:01 pm

KevinSolway wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The suttas are the basis -- the touchstone -- for what we know of the Buddha-Dhamma.


You are only speaking for yourself. You don't speak for me.
And you neatly continue to make my point. Your "Buddhdhamma" has no basis in the actual teachings of the Buddha. It is just stuff you are making up.


. . . samsara.


I've already explained that I have direct knowledge of the nature of samsara and rebirth. I shouldn't have to say it more than once.
And the nature of this supposed "direct knowledge?"


The requirement of "human birth" is something found in the suttas.


No, it's something found by direct knowledge.
Directly from the suttas.


Without any support for them other than it is what you believe


I've given you solid reasons for what I've said.
No, you actually have not. You have repeatedly expressed what you believe, but you are unwilling, more likely simply unable, to show that it is grounded in anything other than your "direct knowledge," which is to say -- stuff you have made up.

As an example of your inability to read, I said about six times, very clearly indeed, that the Buddha experienced physical ageing and death. That fact was essential to my argument. You interpreted those words of mine to be saying that the Buddha didn't experience ageing and death at all. This is proof that you are a very poor reader, and unable to understand reasoned arguments.
The problem is that you are a very poor writer. Basically, I was asking questions in various ways to try to get at what it is that you believe and the basis for it. Well, of course, it is your direct knowledge, which is, of course, utterly reliable.


So, since you cannot back up you statements with the suttas


The Buddha did not back up his statements with suttas.
You are not the Buddha, and since it is his teachings that we are concerned with here, reference to the teachings of the suttas makes sense. Your claim to direct knowledge carries no weight beyond your mirror.

This is because he was a living example of the Buddhadhamma.

He was an example, and a pattern that we should follow.
And, of course, you would not have a clue as to what that is without the suttas.


the only conclusion is that you are simply making up stuff.


So, according to your reasoning, since the Buddha didn't support his statements with reference to suttas, the only conclusion is that he was making stuff up.
Again, you are not the Buddha, and there is no basis here for taking your claim of "direct knowledge" as carrying any weight. So far you have given us your beliefs about rebirth and you have called that reasoning, but it really does carry that weight of being carefully crafted and exampled argumentation.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

      >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
      -- Proverbs 26:12

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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:03 pm

beeblebrox wrote:
KevinSolway wrote:The Buddha did not back up his statements with suttas. This is because he was a living example of the Buddhadhamma.

He was an example, and a pattern that we should follow.


That sounds good... where should we find this example?

:anjali:
Kevin, of course, is where we find this example. In other words, in the Direct Knowledge Teachings of Kevin.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

      >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
      -- Proverbs 26:12

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DAWN
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby DAWN » Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:17 pm

:woohoo:

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Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english


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