Niganthas Vs Modern day idealogy

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Mukunda
Posts: 295
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:54 am

Re: Niganthas Vs Modern day idealogy

Post by Mukunda » Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:08 pm

Please don't feed the trolls. :cookoo:

meindzai
Posts: 595
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:10 pm

Re: Niganthas Vs Modern day idealogy

Post by meindzai » Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:37 pm

For the record, no, I don't think it's fair to classify Brizzy as a troll.

But Brizzy, your posts do seem to have a bit of an agenda. I think saying that you have an "axe to grind" is probably accurate. If you don't like Goenka's approach - don't practice it. Comparing it to the Niganthas does two things. First, it puts down Goenka and everybody who practices his technique by saying they're doing the kind of practice the Buddha advised against. Secondly, the imlpication is that you have a better understanding of the Suttas and of the Dhamma than Goenka does. That's above and beyond simply disagreeing with what somebody teaches.

Also, you didn't show any favor to the Suttas at all. Here for example, you use an idea from the Suttas (ekaggata - one pointedness) to accuse the Buddha of contradicting his own teachings.
The idea of a collected mind, as found in the suttas is a mind that is together & powerful - in tune with the body and is malleable enough for vipassana (a happy mind ). The one pointed mind sounds more like a "Hindu Oneness" approach rather than Buddha Dhamma.
-M

User avatar
BlackBird
Posts: 1928
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: Niganthas Vs Modern day idealogy

Post by BlackBird » Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:07 pm

Why do you practice Buddhism Brizzy?
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6625
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Niganthas Vs Modern day idealogy

Post by Cittasanto » Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:50 pm

there seam to be a few members who seam to come here with an agenda.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

meindzai
Posts: 595
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:10 pm

Re: Niganthas Vs Modern day idealogy

Post by meindzai » Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:16 pm

Manapa wrote:there seam to be a few members who seam to come here with an agenda.
May we all become free of our agendas.

-M

User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Niganthas Vs Modern day idealogy

Post by Ben » Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:46 am

meindzai wrote:
Manapa wrote:there seam to be a few members who seam to come here with an agenda.
May we all become free of our agendas.

-M
Sadhu Meindzai, Sadhu!
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6625
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Niganthas Vs Modern day idealogy

Post by Cittasanto » Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:22 am

meindzai wrote:
Manapa wrote:there seam to be a few members who seam to come here with an agenda.
May we all become free of our agendas.

-M
Image
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

Brizzy

Re: Niganthas Vs Modern day idealogy

Post by Brizzy » Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:54 am

meindzai wrote:For the record, no, I don't think it's fair to classify Brizzy as a troll.

But Brizzy, your posts do seem to have a bit of an agenda. I think saying that you have an "axe to grind" is probably accurate. If you don't like Goenka's approach - don't practice it. Comparing it to the Niganthas does two things. First, it puts down Goenka and everybody who practices his technique by saying they're doing the kind of practice the Buddha advised against. Secondly, the imlpication is that you have a better understanding of the Suttas and of the Dhamma than Goenka does. That's above and beyond simply disagreeing with what somebody teaches.

Also, you didn't show any favor to the Suttas at all. Here for example, you use an idea from the Suttas (ekaggata - one pointedness) to accuse the Buddha of contradicting his own teachings.
The idea of a collected mind, as found in the suttas is a mind that is together & powerful - in tune with the body and is malleable enough for vipassana (a happy mind ). The one pointed mind sounds more like a "Hindu Oneness" approach rather than Buddha Dhamma.
-M
Hi Mendzai

Ekaggata - unification, rather than one pointed. There is a real difference in practice.

Comparing it to the Niganthas is my opinion. If people can show that the Buddha supported Goenka's views on kamma, I would be interested.

"Questions And Answers

Question: It seems to me that it would take forever to eliminate the sankharas one by one.

S.N. Goenka: That would be so if one moment of equanimity meant exactly one less sankhara of the past. But in fact, awareness of sensation takes you to the deepest level of the mind and allows you to cut the roots of past conditioning. In this way, in a relatively short time, you can eliminate entire complexes of sankharas, if your awareness and equanimity are strong.

Question: Then how long should the process take?

S.N. Goenka: That depends on how great a stock of sankharas you have to eliminate, and how strong your meditation is. You cannot measure the past stock but you can be sure that the more seriously you meditate, the more quickly you are approaching liberation. Keep working steadfastly towards that goal. The time is bound to come—sooner rather than later—when you will reach it. "

http://www.udaya.dhamma.org/ebook/Medi ... urn false;

Now if somebody can give a sutta reference for stockpiles of kamma being released for one moment of equanimity I would be interested.....

"'If it were the case that when there was fierce striving, fierce exertion, you felt fierce, sharp, racking pains from harsh treatment; and when there was no fierce striving, no fierce exertion, you still felt fierce, sharp, racking pains from harsh treatment, then — that being the case — it would be proper for you to assert that, "Whatever a person experiences — pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain — all is caused by what was done in the past. Thus, with the destruction of old actions through asceticism, and with the non-doing of new actions, there will be no flow into the future. With no flow into the future, there is the ending of action. With the ending of action, the ending of stress. With the ending of stress, the ending of feeling. With the ending of feeling, all suffering & stress will be exhausted." But because when there is fierce striving, fierce exertion, you feel fierce, sharp, racking pains from harsh treatment; and when there was no fierce striving, no fierce exertion, you feel no fierce, sharp, racking pains from harsh treatment, then — that being the case — it is not proper for you to assert that, "Whatever a person experiences — pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain — all is caused by what was done in the past. Thus, with the destruction of old actions through asceticism, and with the non-doing of new actions, there will be no flow into the future. With no flow into the future, there is the ending of action. With the ending of action, the ending of stress. With the ending of stress, the ending of feeling. With the ending of feeling, all suffering & stress will be exhausted."' But when I said this, I did not see that the Niganthas had any legitimate defense of their teaching.

"So I asked them further, 'Friend Niganthas, what do you think: Can an action to be experienced in the here-&-now be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action to be experienced in the future life?'

"'No, friend.'

"'Can an action to be experienced in the future life be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action to be experienced in the here-&-now?'

"'No, friend.'

"What do you think: Can an action to be experienced as pleasure be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action to be experienced as pain?'

"'No, friend.'

"'Can an action to be experienced as pain be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action to be experienced as pleasure?'

"'No, friend.'

"What do you think: Can an action ripe to be experienced be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action not ripe to be experienced?'

"'No, friend.'

"'Can an action not ripe to be experienced be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action ripe to be experienced?'

"'No, friend.'

"What do you think: Can an action greatly to be experienced be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action barely to be experienced?'

"'No, friend.'

"'Can an action barely to be experienced be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action greatly to be experienced?'

"'No, friend.'

"What do you think: Can an action to be experienced be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action not to be experienced?'

"'No, friend.'

"'Can an action not to be experienced be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action to be experienced?'

"'No, friend.'

"'So, friends, it seems that an action to be experienced in the here-&-now cannot be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action to be experienced in the future life. An action to be experienced in the future life cannot be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action to be experienced in the here-&-now... An action to be experienced cannot be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action not to be experienced. An action not to be experienced cannot be turned, through striving & exertion, into an action to be experienced. That being the case, the striving of the Niganthas is fruitless, their exertion is fruitless.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... urn false;

Now one of the main themes of goenkas courses is striving & exertion (adittana sit) & hour after hour of sitting.

The painful sensations that arise are put down to concentration ( whenever I become concentrated (unified mind) my pains fall away). The painful sensations arise because of intense exertion & attention.

[EDIT: Off-topic meta-discussion removed - Retro.]

:smile:

Brizzy

Re: Niganthas Vs Modern day idealogy

Post by Brizzy » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:10 pm

Manapa wrote:
meindzai wrote:
Manapa wrote:there seam to be a few members who seam to come here with an agenda.
May we all become free of our agendas.

-M
Image

Image

Brizzy

Re: Niganthas Vs Modern day idealogy

Post by Brizzy » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:12 pm

BlackBird wrote:Why do you practice Buddhism Brizzy?
Why do you ask Blackbird?

:smile:

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Niganthas Vs Modern day idealogy

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:33 pm

Moderator note: Things are getting a bit too pointy here. Please address the points raised, not the person raising them and play nice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot] and 75 guests