Niganthas Vs Modern day idealogy

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Brizzy

Niganthas Vs Modern day idealogy

Post by Brizzy » Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:09 am

Hi

Is there any difference between Nigantha/Jain idealogy :-

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

(Good introduction)

and a modern day "View", by a well known teacher? :-
http://www.udaya.dhamma.org/ebook/Medit ... l9801.html

(Q & A) section.

:smile:

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tiltbillings
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Re: Niganthas Vs Modern day idealogy

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:15 am

Brizzy wrote:Hi

Is there any difference between Nigantha/Jain idealogy :-

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

(Good introduction)

and a modern day "View", by a well known teacher? :-
http://www.udaya.dhamma.org/ebook/Medit ... l9801.html

(Q & A) section.
Your question suggest you see some sort of similarity. Be kind enough to spell out what is driving this question and where you see such similarity.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Niganthas Vs Modern day idealogy

Post by Mukunda » Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:23 am

Not if you don't want there to be any difference. :thinking:
Last edited by Mukunda on Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Niganthas Vs Modern day idealogy

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:23 am

Brizzy,

The way you set up the question, you are making those who attempt to answer it do the heavy lifting here, which is not really the most polite way to go about it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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BlackBird
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Re: Niganthas Vs Modern day idealogy

Post by BlackBird » Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:50 am

Wasn't this already under discussion in your Vipassana thread?

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Re: Niganthas Vs Modern day idealogy

Post by Ben » Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:01 am

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Brizzy

Re: Niganthas Vs Modern day idealogy

Post by Brizzy » Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:04 am

tiltbillings wrote:Brizzy,

The way you set up the question, you are making those who attempt to answer it do the heavy lifting here, which is not really the most polite way to go about it.
Tiltbillings,

It is a straightforward question, with two reasonably short links for your perusal. I would not want to do peoples thinking for them. I am not being impolite. If you want to answer my question - great, if not -great.

:smile:

Brizzy

Re: Niganthas Vs Modern day idealogy

Post by Brizzy » Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:06 am

BlackBird wrote:Wasn't this already under discussion in your Vipassana thread?

metta
Jack
In a way, I just thought it would be interesting to have a thread just on this question.

:smile:

Brizzy

Re: Niganthas Vs Modern day idealogy

Post by Brizzy » Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:07 am

Ben wrote:
social_media_axe_grind.jpg
If people dont have anything to say...........

:smile:

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Re: Niganthas Vs Modern day idealogy

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:12 am

Greetings Brizzy,
In a way, I just thought it would be interesting to have a thread just on this question.
Well actually having a question to start with would help. In the absence of one however, I suspect you're referring here to the notion of "burning off kamma", but there's nothing in this Q&A for example that suggests that this is what the Goenka technique is about.
Question: It seems to me that it would take forever to eliminate the sankharas one by one.

S.N. Goenka: That would be so if one moment of equanimity meant exactly one less sankhara of the past. But in fact, awareness of sensation takes you to the deepest level of the mind and allows you to cut the roots of past conditioning. In this way, in a relatively short time, you can eliminate entire complexes of sankharas, if your awareness and equanimity are strong.
He is talking about "cut[ting] off the roots of past conditioning" (by eradicating ignorance) which is perfectly aligned with the Dhamma, and precisely what differentiates the Dhamma from the Jain understanding.... so yes, there is a difference.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

Brizzy

Re: Niganthas Vs Modern day idealogy

Post by Brizzy » Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:37 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Brizzy,
In a way, I just thought it would be interesting to have a thread just on this question.
Well actually having a question to start with would help. In the absence of one however, I suspect you're referring here to the notion of "burning off kamma", but there's nothing in this Q&A for example that suggests that this is what the Goenka technique is about.
Question: It seems to me that it would take forever to eliminate the sankharas one by one.

S.N. Goenka: That would be so if one moment of equanimity meant exactly one less sankhara of the past. But in fact, awareness of sensation takes you to the deepest level of the mind and allows you to cut the roots of past conditioning. In this way, in a relatively short time, you can eliminate entire complexes of sankharas, if your awareness and equanimity are strong.
He is talking about "cut[ting] off the roots of past conditioning" (by eradicating ignorance) which is perfectly aligned with the Dhamma, and precisely what differentiates the Dhamma from the Jain understanding.... so yes, there is a difference.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Hi Retro

"Is there any difference between Nigantha/Jain idealogy and a modern day "View", by a well known teacher? I started with this question. :thinking:

Eliminating entire complexes of sankharas(kamma) sounds a lot like the jain practice to me.

:smile:

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Re: Niganthas Vs Modern day idealogy

Post by DNS » Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:46 am

Goenka's answer and teaching seems very much inline with this from the Buddha:
"And how is striving fruitful, how is exertion fruitful? There is the case where a monk, when not loaded down, does not load himself down with pain, nor does he reject pleasure that accords with the Dhamma, although he is not fixated on that pleasure. He discerns that 'When I exert a [physical, verbal, or mental] fabrication against this cause of stress, then from the fabrication of exertion there is dispassion. When I look on with equanimity at that cause of stress, then from the development of equanimity there is dispassion.' So he exerts a fabrication against the cause of stress where there comes dispassion from the fabrication of exertion, and develops equanimity with regard to the cause of stress where there comes dispassion from the development of equanimity. Thus the stress where there comes dispassion from the fabrication of exertion is exhausted & the stress where there comes dispassion from the development of equanimity is exhausted."
MN 101

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Re: Niganthas Vs Modern day idealogy

Post by BlackBird » Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:29 am

Brizzy wrote: I would not want to do peoples thinking for them. I am not being impolite. If you want to answer my question - great, if not -great.
Do you not think it would have been more straightforward to say:

"I think Goenka's method shows similarities with Jain-Dhamma, this is my explanation for it, and here is the evidence."

Instead you start off with a loaded question, which relies on the fore drawn conclusion that Jain-Dhamma and Goenka method are identical. You posts links to a couple of sources, without once mentioning the name of the teacher/method, and ask if we can find any difference at all between them. This is tantamount to saying: "I know the truth, prove me wrong."

If you want people to have a reasoned discussion with you, then show them the courtesy they deserve.

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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tiltbillings
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Re: Niganthas Vs Modern day idealogy

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:40 am

BlackBird wrote:
Brizzy wrote: I would not want to do peoples thinking for them. I am not being impolite. If you want to answer my question - great, if not -great.
Do you not think it would have been more straightforward to say:

"I think Goenka's method shows similarities with Jain-Dhamma, this is my explanation for it, and here is the evidence."

Instead you start off with a loaded question, which relies on the fore drawn conclusion that Jain-Dhamma and Goenka method are identical. You posts links to a couple of sources, without once mentioning the name of the teacher/method, and ask if we can find any difference at all between them. This is tantamount to saying: "I know the truth, prove me wrong."

If you want people to have a reasoned discussion with you, then show them the courtesy they deserve.

metta
Jack
Well put.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Niganthas Vs Modern day idealogy

Post by Paññāsikhara » Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:47 am

Coming back to the question ...

That Goenka material differs in my mind from that taught by the Nigganthas, in a very crucial point:
The Nigganthas believed that kamma (or sankhara, or whatever term one may use) are burnt off / eliminated by the experiencing of ascetic pains (tapas).
Buddhism also talks about eliminating these, but certainly NOT by physical asceticism (as self-mortification). Or even "burning off", but again, the metaphor of tapas as asceticism, already a pun on tapas as the sacrificial fire, is rendered in Buddhism to the fires of wisdom, a strictly mental engagement.

You may like to check out Bronhorst's Two Traditions of Indian Asceticism, and / or Two Traditions of Meditation in Ancient India. He makes the differences very clear.

:smile:
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