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Buddha Nature ?

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:24 am
by Aloka
.

The term "Buddha nature" is used a lot in Mahayana, sometimes to indicate that all beings have the inherent potential to be Buddhas..... and sometimes like in this quote from Sogyal Rinpoche in the 'Tibetan Book of Living and Dying'.

" It is in the sky-like nature of our mind. Utterly open, free, and limitless, it is fundementally so simple and so natural that it can never be complicated, corrupted, or stained, so pure that it is beyond even the concept of purity and impurity. To talk of this nature of mind as sky-like, of course, is only a metaphor that helps us to begin to imagine its all -embracing boundlessness, for the buddha nature has a quality the sky cannot have, that of the radiant clarity of awareness."


Does Lord Buddha make any similar references anywhere in the Pali Canon? I would be very grateful if anyone could give me some if there are any.


Kind regards,

Aloka

Re: Buddha Nature ?

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:36 am
by Ben
Not to my knowledge, Aloka.
metta

Ben

Re: Buddha Nature ?

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:39 am
by PeterB
My own view Aloka is that the concept of Buddha Nature is a reversion to the Vedic view of Atman.

Re: Buddha Nature ?

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:40 am
by tiltbillings
Aloka wrote:.

The term "Buddha nature" is used a lot in Mahayana, sometimes to indicate that all beings have the inherent potential to be Buddhas..... and sometimes like in this quote from Sogyal Rinpoche in the 'Tibetan Book of Living and Dying'.

" It is in the sky-like nature of our mind. Utterly open, free, and limitless, it is fundementally so simple and so natural that it can never be complicated, corrupted, or stained, so pure that it is beyond even the concept of purity and impurity. To talk of this nature of mind as sky-like, of course, is only a metaphor that helps us to begin to imagine its all -embracing boundlessness, for the buddha nature has a quality the sky cannot have, that of the radiant clarity of awareness."


Does Lord Buddha make any similar references anywhere in the Pali Canon? I would be very grateful if anyone could give me some if there are any.


Kind regards,

Aloka
Like Nagarjuna, buddha-nature notion is something the Theravada does not need, and it is something the Buddha did not teach.

Re: Buddha Nature ?

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:09 pm
by christopher:::
I agree with Peter, the term can be conceptualized in an Atman way. But it also can mean simply the potential each of us has to awaken fully, as Buddha did.

Concerning references in the suttas- for those of you with greater familiarity, aren't there places where Buddha talked of the mind being luminous? If so, what did he mean by that?

:anjali:

Re: Buddha Nature ?

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:17 pm
by tiltbillings
christopher::: wrote: aren't there places where Buddha talked of the mind being luminous? If so, what did he mean by that?

:anjali:
Oh, gawd, not that again. It does not mean that we are already awakened, but it does mean that as we becomes aware of something there is a brief moment of clarity before the rest of the khandhas kick in and we get lost all that stuff. It is that clarity that is what is cultivated as mindfulness. The clarity is not awakening, but it is the tool that allows us to see the interdependent rise and fall of whatever comes into our awareness and from that, awakening.

Re: Buddha Nature ?

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:23 pm
by PeterB
In the way that you have described it Chris it is as meaningless as saying that there is potential for fire in flint, which actually I think Plato did teach.
In terms of the Theravada there are changing conditions arising from causes.
Potentiality in that context means nothing at all.

Re: Buddha Nature ?

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:25 pm
by meindzai
You might want to check out Thanissaro Bhikkhu's talk here entitled "What is wrong with Buddha nature."

Direct link --> [MP3] [STREAM]

-M

Re: Buddha Nature ?

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:16 pm
by PeterB
Excellent meindzai.. :anjali:

Very interesting on the reality of "luminous mind."

Re: Buddha Nature ?

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:18 pm
by christopher:::
I hope this analogy isn't taken the wrong way, but the traditional Theravadin view sometimes reminds me of acoustic folk/blues music, with the Mahayana being like electric rock. A rock musician who unplugs at times, knows how to play acoustic, can make some really beautiful music. Dylan, the Beatles, Hendrix, etc...

And acoustic folk or blues alone is outstanding. It's the heavy metal stuff that just goes nowhere, for me anyway...

So-- if someone understands and practices the primary teachings of Buddha's dharma skillfully, as taught in Theravada, and also holds conceptions of Buddha Nature, i think they'll do fine. But ideas like Buddha Nature on their own, without being rooted in the essentials of the dharma...

ouch.

The Dhamma is essential, the idea of Buddha Nature is not. Folk/Blues acoustic skills are essential, electricity is not, but the two together can produce some excellent music....

Folk/blues purists may disagree, of course. That's to be expected...



:smile:

Re: Buddha Nature ?

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:39 pm
by PeterB
I dont think the analogy holds at all Chris. After all someone who plays an electric guitar ( and we will ignore the implied more advanced nature of the amplified instrument ) can still pick up an acoustic and play as well as ever.
Did you listen to the talk by Thanissaro Bhikkhu that Meindzai posted ?
Among other things he discuusses the fact that concepts like Buddha Nature actually harms the ability to understand the Theravadin view. This is not simply a question of purity of tradition.
The concept of Buddha Nature prevents an understanding of what constitutes reality according to the Theravada. Have a listen to the good Bhikkhu.

Re: Buddha Nature ?

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:12 pm
by meindzai
I'd say if you firmly plant yourself in the Mahayana context, you'll have a better time if you have some foundational study in the Pali canon. Otherwise Buddha nature does seem to become exactly the kind of eternalist teaching the Buddha constantly warned about. In Theravada it is pretty heavily drilled into one that "all dhammas are not self" including Nibanna. (With which Buddha nature is equated).

However if you stay in a Theravada context I would say that it's not beneficial to bring the teaching into the fold and try to make it fit.

As for music analogies, I tend to equate Theravada with classical and Mahayana with Jazz. Lots more improvising going on in Jazz, but the best jazz players (at least my favorites) have at least some classical training. :)

-M

Re: Buddha Nature ?

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:21 pm
by PeterB
If those analogies help then feel free...I am afraid they dont do much for me. :smile:

I think trying to mix Yanas is likely ( to borrow analogy from the visual arts ) likely to end up with neither blue nor yellow but khaki..everything all muddied up.

Re: Buddha Nature ?

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:56 pm
by meindzai
To clarify, Pete, I don't believe in mixing either. What I think is that Mahayanists benefit from a background in the Pali Canon, but I don't believe it works the other way around. Most of the people that I know who have jumped straight into Mahayana suttas have ended up with something that is not much different from Brahmanism - just with slightly different vocabulary.

-M

Re: Buddha Nature ?

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:03 pm
by PeterB
D'accord meindzai.