Buddhagosa
- tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhagosa
(A. X, 62): "No first beginning of the craving for existence can be perceived, o monks, before which it was not and after which it came to be. But it can he perceived that craving for existence has its specific condition. I say, o monks, that also craving for existence has its condition that feeds it (sáharam) and is not without it. And what is it? 'Ignorance', one has to reply."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Buddhagosa
You did not reply to the previous question Tilt about MN 38.tiltbillings wrote:(A. X, 62): "No first beginning of the craving for existence can be perceived, o monks, before which it was not and after which it came to be. But it can he perceived that craving for existence has its specific condition. I say, o monks, that also craving for existence has its condition that feeds it (sáharam) and is not without it. And what is it? 'Ignorance', one has to reply."
Exchanging quotes is the same as mere opinions of "right" and "wrong".
The suttas are full of mundance & supramundane quotes.
Next, you will pull up some mundane quote about endless samsara.
Keep the discussion on the level of supramundane dhamma.
If one cannot discern a beginning of ignorance, how can it be ended?
You are misunderstanding AN X.62. You have turned it into a doctrine of eternalism rather than a doctrine of dukkha nirodho.
- tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhagosa
I have read the text, but I do not see your point. Please be kind enough to draw it out.Better you read the text Tilt. This is not a kindergarten.
Probably.Nexr, you will pull up some mundane quote about endless samsara.
Now, that is an interesting distinction, but not yet convincing.Keep the discussion on the level of supramundane dhamma.
If one cannot discern a beginning of ignorance, how can it be ended?
Why does one have to see the beginning of ignorance to stop it? Explain, if you would be so kind, what you might mean by seeing the beginning of ignorance.
Possible, but not yet shown to be so.You are misunderstanding AN X.62.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhagosa
"Bhikkhus, the round is beginningless. Of the beings that travel and trudge through this round, shut in as they are by ignorance and fettered by craving, no first beginning is describable." SN 15:1
"That both I and you have to travel and trudge through this long round is owing to our not discovering, not penetrating, four truths. What four? They are: (I) the noble truth of suffering, (II) the noble truth of the origin of suffering, (III) the noble truth of the cessation of suffering, and (IV) the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering." DN 16
Now, I suppose these are mundane dhamma, but if so, why?
"That both I and you have to travel and trudge through this long round is owing to our not discovering, not penetrating, four truths. What four? They are: (I) the noble truth of suffering, (II) the noble truth of the origin of suffering, (III) the noble truth of the cessation of suffering, and (IV) the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering." DN 16
Now, I suppose these are mundane dhamma, but if so, why?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Buddhagosa
Buddhagosa has said the wheel never ends. Stopping the wheel requires the seeing of ignorance arising now. Its 'beginning' has no relevance to stopping the wheel. Buddha did not talk about dependent origination like buddhagosa did. buddhagosa has convoluted various dhammas.tiltbillings wrote:Why does one have to see the beginning of ignorance to stop it? Explain, if you would be so kind, what you might mean by seeing the beginning of ignorance.
Becoming's Wheel reveals no known beginning;
No maker, no experiencer there;
Void with a twelvefold voidness, and nowhere
It ever halts; for ever it is spinning.
- tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhagosa
It certainly never stops as long as there is no awakening, "seeing of ignorance arising [and falling] now."Buddhagosa has said the wheel never ends. Stopping the wheel requires the seeing of ignorance arising now.
Its 'beginning' has no relevance to stopping the wheel.
Okay, but from what you wrote earlier its seems that you were suggesting somehow that it did.
Okay. In what way has Buddhaghosa "convoluted various dhammas?"Buddha did not talk about dependent origination like buddhagosa did. buddhagosa has convoluted various dhammas.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Buddhagosa
this quote is a general quote about samsara not the sublime dhamma of paticcasamupata.tiltbillings wrote:"Bhikkhus, the round is beginningless. Of the beings that travel and trudge through this round, shut in as they are by ignorance and fettered by craving, no first beginning is describable." SN 15:1
"That both I and you have to travel and trudge through this long round is owing to our not discovering, not penetrating, four truths. What four? They are: (I) the noble truth of suffering, (II) the noble truth of the origin of suffering, (III) the noble truth of the cessation of suffering, and (IV) the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering." DN 16
Now, I suppose these are mundane dhamma, but if so, why?
mn 38 talks about the here & now arising and cessation of paticcasummupada
- tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhagosa
There are two quotes here that go together rather nicely. The second directly mentioned the Fout Noble Truths, which is a specific application of a general formula of paticcasummupada: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .ntbb.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Element wrote:this quote is a general quote about samsara not the sublime dhamma of paticcasamupata.tiltbillings wrote:"Bhikkhus, the round is beginningless. Of the beings that travel and trudge through this round, shut in as they are by ignorance and fettered by craving, no first beginning is describable." SN 15:1
"That both I and you have to travel and trudge through this long round is owing to our not discovering, not penetrating, four truths. What four? They are: (I) the noble truth of suffering, (II) the noble truth of the origin of suffering, (III) the noble truth of the cessation of suffering, and (IV) the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering." DN 16
Now, I suppose these are mundane dhamma, but if so, why?
mn 38 talks about the here & now arising and cessation of paticcasummupada
These things are, of course, talked about from many different perspectives.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723